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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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If the Reeds were better communicators, the entire plot of ASOIAF would collapse under it's own weight.

*giggle*

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If a hungover Sandor could recognize Arya in a crowded room with a glance, it seems clear that LF recognized her last season.

Battle scenes are just going to be truncated. Frankly, I don’t want Jaime and Brienne to just hack at each other with swords for 10 minutes so that we can watch all the clever sword moves Jaime does and see them both getting tired and fall into the river. I felt that the show made the point about Jaime’s disadvantage visually with his decrepit look. He and Arya both picked the wrong fight this episode, because that’s in their nature. It does seem out of character that the farmer was paid.

I like TV Shae. I think Shae sees some of the same things in Sansa that Sandor did, and is stepping into the protective role for that reason. I’m not sure why she is willing to take so many risks or exactly what she thinks she can do with her knife, but I enjoy her cadence and I think it is interesting that she’s something of a loose cannon.

I thought Olenna’s gentler, grandmotherly tone really worked. The Tyrells act so nice, and clearly do it intentionally as part of their family strategy. An acerbic Olenna would have stuck out. Also, you can get away with saying quite shocking / horrible things if you have a grandmotherly tone. I can’t wait to see Olenna vs. Cersei.

I also don’t understand why people are passing judgment on how this season is handling the rumor of Bran and Rickon’s death. Catelyn and Robb will eventually come to believe the boys are dead. When we get there, it might be awesome. Or not. But we haven’t gotten there yet and we just don’t know. Is Bolton withholding information at this point?

I really don’t like watching the Theon torture scenes. I get why they should happen on screen, but I really don’t want to see it.

I wonder if Nymeria will be completely cut, and if so, how will Cat get out of the water? It is hard to know yet how important warging really is to the series, and if its de-emphasis in the show will be a problem down the road.

Sad that the nice big watchman who carried Sam got cut, I thought it was really eerie when he showed up with the bird eating his face.

I miss Varys. And Tywin. I’m rooting for a Varys Tywin scene.

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My god...can this world have enough complainers? First off...since season 1 started and season 2, people would complain that they were moving to fast or weren't adding a lot of memorable scenes.

Now Season 3 starts and its movely slightly slow because its the first couple episodes, and new characters and all, and BLOODY HELL....THE THIRD BOOK IS SPLIT INTO TWO SEASONS!!! I just don't understand people. They always ask for something, get it, then they complain even more.

I loved this episode. Though I could understand why most people thought Catelyn's scene was horrible, you have to admit it brought some more emotions to her character that she's blaming herself.

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Also...it does piss me off that D&D have been avoiding the whole warging situation in the past seasons and then changing a few tiny little bits of the main story....at least they actually mentioned warging in this episode. We just need to see Jon warg and Rob now.

And with Nymeria, I think they don't have to show her until Catelyn ends up dying and shes lying in the river. Everyone will be like, whos wolf is that and then remember season 1. But its going to be a bit tricky to make the wolf stick out compared to the others. Possibly make her seem larger?

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Both LF and Ned told Cat to watch her temper and not do anything until ned could find solid evidence and bring it to robert.

Yet the first thing Cat does when she sees Tyrion is to arrest him, wich caused the deaths of thousands of people in the riverlands a the hands of the Lannisters.

Catelyn taking Tyrion prisoner did cause the Lannisters invasion of the Riverlands, to "Remind her that lannisters pay their debts" as Tywin puts it.

So Tywin used it as a pretense to commit open rebellion against Robert's reign. If you give someone a pretense for something they were going to do anyway, I can't buy it makes you solely responsible.

Stannis was on to Joffrey's parentage. Cersi was waiting for the right time for Robert to die. Ned was going to find out the truth. etc. etc. etc. Civil war was just a matter of time. Tywin's armies were ready for a reason.

I can't lay the whole thing at Cat's feet. If Jaime doesn't send Bran flying off that tower, then Cat has no reason to take Tyrion. Maybe we should blame the entire war on Jaime and put those thousands of deaths on him.

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Had to laugh at the sound of the Internet exploding over Catelyn's speech to Talisa. Honestly, I don't know how I feel about it. Is it out of character? Sure. I can't envision Cat ever admitting to guilt over Jon. But, hell, show!Cat never followed through on her guilt. I think, at our core, humans always realize when they're jealous and bitter, though we would never actually admit to it -- we'd stand firm on a foundation of self righteousness. So, while out of character, I don't necessarily think it's an absolute travesty for Cat to admit to feeling guilty at one point -- an innocent babe was about to die after she had wished for it. The babe didn't die, so she was all "Lulz, that was close...I'ma go back to hating you now."

I didn't think it was out of character at all, and I enjoyed that scene. In fact I thought it was quite in line with her character, that she had a moment of compassion for Jon (as a mother herself), but then couldn't bring herself to actually love him or treat him like part of her family and went back to hating him. I thought it was terribly sad and wonderfully written, and Michelle Fairly performed it quite well.

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And with Nymeria, I think they don't have to show her until Catelyn ends up dying and shes lying in the river. Everyone will be like, whos wolf is that and then remember season 1. But its going to be a bit tricky to make the wolf stick out compared to the others. Possibly make her seem larger?

I've got two words for you...

"Previously on..."

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But she had LF's word that it was Tyrion's dagger!

Speaking of which, do you think the show will revisit this? To my knowledge it hasn't been mentioned since season 1, and it would be difficult to explain how Tyrion and Jaime come to the conclusion that it was Joffrey.

Of course, they may have a scene of Joffrey explaining it t someone, possibly Ros.

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If a hungover Sandor could recognize Arya in a crowded room with a glance, it seems clear that LF recognized her last season.

...

Can't argue with that logic. I'm just not sure logic figures into this. Both events are deviations from the books and the respective scenes are inserted by the TV people as a means to an end. I don't know if they would even stop to think, "well if Sandor could recognize her..."

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what are there more of...complainers, or complainers who complain about complainers?

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what are there more of...complainers, or complainers who complain about complainers?

Does it matter? It's not like either of those groups appear to be enjoying themselves.

Edited by Warhawk137

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Great Episode!

I love Thoros of Myr in the TV show.

Did Dolorous Edd remind anyone else of Bronn in this episode?

and do you think that Sophie Turner is getting to tall for Sansa?

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and do you think that Sophie Turner is getting to tall for Sansa?

I honestly didn't notice it, but maybe just because I was so caught up on the jarring change of Bran's voice, but I guess we can't blame the kid for puberty.

And if the only complaint we have is Sophie's height, we should consider ourselves lucky. I'll have to rewatch and pay attention.

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So the "Boy" who lets Theon free is suppose to be Ramsay right? just want to confirm my suspicions with you intelligent folk.

Other then that great episode, the Reeds intro was great same with the Queen of Thornes. I love the exposition they are giving Marg. Natalie Dormer is killing it.

I understand the Cat stuff sticks in the Craw of most people but it didnt bother me to much. her show arch has always been just Meh to me.

Lastly i want to praise Thoros, he lit up the screen just seemed like he was out having fun. Fun not a word used in this world to often.

Edited by KnightsOfDany

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Lastly i want to praise Thoros, he lit up the screen just seemed like he was out having fun. Fun not a word used in this world to often.

Which is an interesting choice, because from what I remember in the books he was pretty sober once he got, you know, sober and religious. Not that I have a problem with it at all. I'm actually surprised more people aren't up in arms over this change. More people seem to be concerned about a non-change to Catelyn than an actual change.

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I'm sorry but I just don't feel that Sibel Kikelli can act. I admittedly haven't seen her in anything else, but tbh it doesn't really matter if she's winning Emmy's elsewhere - it doesn't change the fact that her performance here is imo, awful. It just sounds so wooden and stilted. The problem is not the accent.

Ok so bad acting. Not going to try and argue that point because it will simply go in circles. I believe she's doing a good job distinguishing Shae from a common whore (or even an uncommon whore like Ros)

Oh yes, how silly of Tyrion, being hung up over murdering someone. She was just a gold-digger he shouldn't have cared. And yes he very well should fall for that sort of thing: as you say yourself characters should have flaws. Tyrion's is his issues with love and with women.

Yes, how silly in a world where people are commonly killed, where the king slaughters innocent babes, where thousands of men are burnt to death in a single battle, that Tyrion would get so hung up over killing a whore he rather liked instead of his father lets say. In the books, Shae doesn't make a sufficient impact that a character so supposedly smart as Tyrion should get caught up with her. This Shae adds enough depth for it to be believable, so that in season 4 and onward, when he has issues with love and women, IT'LL BE BELIEVABLE! That's why we get so much Shae material, why she's so important (more so than Jeyne/Talisa) and why the actress is actually doing something with what was a one note character in the books

But it's not a matter of focus. Both characters have sizeable amounts of screen time and both could have been written equally well. Instead both were written equally worse.

Equally worse is laughable, and Shae gets much more screen time. It is a matter of choice. You get 550 minutes for a season, how to allocate those minutes are crucial

But that's the whole point of her interactions with Tyrion: that she is, in the end just a prostitute who doesn't care for Tyrion, demonstrating Tyrion's big, major flaw. Having Shae be genuine in her affections takes away from that. And like Talisa, it's another instance of D+D's obsession with sassy badass women, turning every single character they can into such and neglecting those that they can't.

So Tyrion's major flaw is that he gets fucked over by women? Guess what, that's not a character flaw. If he was too obsessed with women, then it'd be a character flaw, but really Shae is the only woman (aside from his first whore yadda yadda) he's developed a weakness for. Indeed Shae keeps him on the straight and narrow rather well. Tyrion's flaw is hubris in his own intellectual talent. He thinks he plays the game better than he does, which gets him screwed over, imprisoned, and exiled to Essos. Because he believes in his own intellectual superiority he continues to indulge Shae, as she is the only person he doesn't understand. You are still assuming that Shae is entirely genuine and won't turn away from Tyrion. Really if she was genuine and turned away it would be even more emotionally wrenching. While I won't saying I know what D&D are doing exactly, I understand how their approaching this and they are doing an excellent job.

Really, his musings on her in the book could be read as him still not understanding her motivations. He's not so much torn up, weeping about his lost love, as thinking, "Why? I don't understand why she did this, and I'm usually so good at understanding everything. Why does a whore do what she does?"

Edited by DisraeliGears

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