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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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I am pretty much convinced Vanessa Taylor is the worst writer currently on staff for Game of Thrones. Is this her 2nd or 3rd episode? Regardless, while she appears to better at pacing and constructing a scene than Benioff and Weiss, she is pretty clueless about how to adapt the source material. And some of her lines are absolute clunkers - Did Robb actually ask of Bolton a version of give me the good news or bad news line? Seriously? Ugh...

Benioff and Weiss also need to be called out here as well, because I really think they are missing some golden dramatic moments from the novel to mine - ie Catelyn's thinking her two youngest sons are dead. Why not let that play out in some way. Its heartwrenching great stuff.

Sigh...

On the bright side, the casting remains top notch.

I definitely disagree with you there. I had a few issues with episode 2, but love the way Taylor faithfully adapted the Queen of Thorns scene and the new scene she added with Joff and Margery. Taylor also did a very nice job with episodes 4 and 6 of Season 2 (the Roderick death scene!!). She's one of the better writers on the show IMO; I think Cogman is the best, though.

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Wait what? I got the impression that the show wants us to like Shae. That shes got a heart of gold underneath it all. Frankly, i hate show!Shae just as much as i hate book!Shae which is a lot. I hate Shae. I do agree that shes kind of up in our business stealing the screentime of characters who matter though.

Right, they want us to like Shae. But the more they try, the more we dislike Shae. And I completely agree; I hate the character of Shae, a lot. First of all because she is a terrible and utterly unbelievable character within the established world and role she is in, but also that she is stealing screen time from other far more worthy and actual interesting characters.

I like her less than book Shae. Ultimately, book Shae was exactly what Tyrion should have known she was - a paid whore who tried to do and say whatever she thought would please Tyrion. When she betrayed him, she was a powerless, ignorant girl threatened by one of the most powerful men in the country - and we know from Tywin Lannister's character that he wasn't going to let her think for a moment that refusing him was an option. A betrayal by show Shae seems like it will have to be much more deliberate and malicious, since she isn't being portrayed as helpless or naive.

Agreed.

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About Robb and Catelyn not knowing if Bran and Rickon had died...unfortuneately the writers dropped the ball on this in Season 2. That should have been the motivation for Robb and Cat to have taken the actions they did but the writers decided to make both of the characters stupid. So it doesn't matter here whether or not Robb and Cat know if Bran and Rickon are dead or alive. The cat is out of the bag and they can't use that trick again.

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Benioff and Weiss also need to be called out here as well, because I really think they are missing some golden dramatic moments from the novel to mine - ie Catelyn's thinking her two youngest sons are dead. Why not let that play out in some way. Its heartwrenching great stuff. Yes - the novel is complicated as is the show, but people would be able to figure it out. Give us some credit.

COMPLETELY AGREE!!!! I have no idea what the writers were smoking, but if I was in charge of the show, this is a piece of the story I would have been absolutely sure was NAILED in the adaptation! It is such a pivotal moment for her character and the story, and they have completely botched it beyond belief.

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Oh, and one last nitpick: IT'S THE THREE EYED CROW, NOT A RAVEN. YOU HAD ONE JOB, HBO.

Technically a raven is a crow (pushes nerd glasses back up on bridge of nose) HOY-MAN.

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Yes, you're right. I should have seen that. Works for me...though I do want the show to set-up where Reek comes from.

Am I the only one who realizes that Reek was never in the book? Reek was always Ramsey. He explains that to Theon after he makes him take on Reek's name and persona. Is this amateur hour? Just kidding but seriously how has no one mentioned this?

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About Robb and Catelyn not knowing if Bran and Rickon had died...unfortuneately the writers dropped the ball on this in Season 2. That should have been the motivation for Robb and Cat to have taken the actions they did but the writers decided to make both of the characters stupid. So it doesn't matter here whether or not Robb and Cat know if Bran and Rickon are dead or alive. The cat is out of the bag and they can't use that trick again.

Yes. I still don't know how this was botched so bad in season 2. How this passed by all of the producers and writers and directors etc is just embarrassing. This is a huge moment for several storylines/characters. I really don't think DnD/writing staff quite understand the books or how to adapt the important moments.

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Am I the only one who realizes that Reek was never in the book? Reek was always Ramsey. He explains that to Theon after he makes him take on Reek's name and persona. Is this amateur hour? Just kidding but seriously how has no one mentioned this?

I actually thought I was starting to misremember this. I didn't have enough confidence in my memory to say it.

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Am I the only one who realizes that Reek was never in the book? Reek was always Ramsey. He explains that to Theon after he makes him take on Reek's name and persona. Is this amateur hour? Just kidding but seriously how has no one mentioned this?

You're incorrect, or only correct in one sense. The *original* Reek does not appear in the books, though he is mentioned several times.

Reek is not one person; it's more of a title, that gets passed from one person to the next, like the Dread Pirate Roberts in the Princess Bride. First the smelly manservant of the Bastard of Bolton is Reek; then Ramsay becomes Reek when it's the only way to save his life; later in book 5, Theon has become Reek. Maybe someone else will be Reek after him.

Edited by Khal Pono

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Was I the only one who loved the Jaime/Brienne fight? It's much more technical and skill-based than all the others in the show. Instead of the classical hit and miss of most movies and shows, this one is all about momentum and stamina. I could almost spot a stamina bar over Jaime's head draining after each block or attack.

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I definitely disagree with you there. I had a few issues with episode 2, but love the way Taylor faithfully adapted the Queen of Thorns scene and the new scene she added with Joff and Margery. Taylor also did a very nice job with episodes 4 and 6 of Season 2 (the Roderick death scene!!). She's one of the better writers on the show IMO; I think Cogman is the best, though.

Hmmm, I thought episodes 4 and 6 were two of the weakest in season 2. She did a great job with the Rodrik death scene and the birthing of the shadow baby, but the rest of those episodes were really uneven. Episode 4 has that absolutely awful scene of Dany at the gates of Qarth and Xaro invoking the rite of Sumak or whatever the fuck that was, and episode six had some pretty lame Harrenhal action with Arya running around and also Dany's horribly written speech to the Spice King. At least they had the sense to cut the Doreah strangling Irri scene from episode six; I just watched that deleted scene on youtube and had it been kept it would have been by far the worst scene in all of Game of Thrones.

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Yes. I still don't know how this was botched so bad in season 2. How this passed by all of the producers and writers and directors etc is just embarrassing. This is a huge moment for several storylines/characters. I really don't think DnD/writing staff quite understand the books or how to adapt the important moments.

The thing is, they could have done the same ending to 'A Man Without Honor'(the episode where Theon kills the kids), except tweak a couple of things. Catelyn frees Jaime, and either Jaime or Brienne ask her why she's doing it. Cat remains silent and walks away, clutching a letter from a raven.

Cut to Theon revealing the bodies, as the viewer realizes why she did what she did. And boom. You still have the same ending. All you need to do is add a few more lines. And you don't make Cat look stupid.

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Am I the only one who realizes that Reek was never in the book? Reek was always Ramsey. He explains that to Theon after he makes him take on Reek's name and persona. Is this amateur hour? Just kidding but seriously how has no one mentioned this?

Technically the original Reek (before Ramsay took on the name) was in ACOK. He was the one who Rodrik and his men killed believing him to be Ramsay. He never 'appeared' in the book though.

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I believe this was the first episode that made GRRM think WTF? he may have thrown his remote.

Don't project. GRRM loves the show, but has always said it's D&D's baby not his.

He also loves book purists because they flatter him by becoming angry about everything that is omitted from the show. I think George is doing just fine.

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Yikes. I'm so happy I can enjoy the books and the show separately. I thought with the level of action and pacing and the introduction of characters, the jackals on the boards would stop bitching for one episode. Guess I was wrong. Personally I never complain about slow pacing in HBO shows as it always pays off later. Gotta remember these seasons are one continuous story so setup is necessary.

Loved the interplay between Marge and Joff. Sansa confided in the Tyrells that Joffrey was a monster, so Marge used it expertly by hinting she's into sadistic shit too to get the King to like her. If he was into something else, no doubt she would become that woman for him. I like where Dungeons and Dragons are taking her.

I like that they went with the Queen of Thorns. I assumed they had Dormer absorb all of QoT's powers Highlander style, with a sprinkling of Anne Boleyn. Glad I was wrong.

Cat admitting to being wrong about Jon was a bit irksome, since with the "it should have been you" comment, book Cat is clearly not a fan of his husband's bastard. This probably makes her more sympathetic for the RW, but I wish they handled it differently. For the record I thought book Cat was plenty sympathetic in the book and I felt bad for her. Didn't feel so bad when she came back as Lady Stoneheart and unfairly hung Brienne.

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The thing is, they could have done the same ending to 'A Man Without Honor'(the episode where Theon kills the kids), except tweak a couple of things. Catelyn frees Jaime, and either Jaime or Brienne ask her why she's doing it. Cat remains silent and walks away, clutching a letter from a raven.

Cut to Theon revealing the bodies, as the viewer realizes why she did what she did. And boom. You still have the same ending. All you need to do is add a few more lines. And you don't make Cat look stupid.

Exactly. There is a thread on these forums over 20 pages long I believe of people who are unhappy this is not the way it turned out. And it literally makes NO SENSE why they didn't do it. There was no reason why it should not have been done this way.

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