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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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I just want to say it was so cool to see Nymeria again!

uh...wut. that was Summer. Unless I missed something. Did I miss something?

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That scene was garbage. Boring and unnecessary. We already know TV Joff is a deviant from earlier scenes. This scene didn't add anything new and slowed the pace of the episode even more.

I might be wrong, but Joffrey is a fan favourite. People love to hate him and he has big scenes coming soon.

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I figure they went with 3 eyed raven to keep some distance between the 3ER and crows of the NW.

Yeah, I imagine they thought people would be quite confused by that. I mean, they might've thought the cro--sorry, Raven-- was a deserter and wondered why Bran was trying to talk to him instead of calling for his execution like a true Stark.

uh...wut. that was Summer. Unless I missed something. Did I miss something?

It was Summer. Though I suppose they look the same.

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I really enjoyed the episode and would give it a B+ / A-. I understand why people think that these first two episodes have been poorly paced, but I think that perspective is a result of watching the show week to week. In terms of HBO's programming I've always felt that GoT is closest to The Wire in terms of pacing and story structure. Both series are detrimented when watched with such large gaps between episodes and the pacing / story structure really smooths out into a cohesive whole when watched sequentially (as so many people are watching TV series' these days). I think that at the end of this season that these two episodes will be much more highly regarded when looked at as portions as a whole rather than in a vacuum. Substantively I loved the Jaime / Brienne scenes and Olenna Tyrell. She is the Dowager Countess of Westeros and Diana Rigg simply owned the part. Obviously the most controversial scene of the night was Cat's monologue to Talisa regarding Jon Snow. I added a much longer description of my thoughts in the thread dedicated to this topic, but I think that those claiming the scene was "Character Assassination" are being somewhat bombastic. At the end of the scene it came back to Cat ultimately being unable to love Jon and musing on the absurdly horrible circumstances that have befallen her family. We all think and say bizarre things in moments of extreme emotion, and I think that this scene brought that to life. I always found it hard to believe when I read the books that Cat didn't have more conflicted feelings about Jon There had to have been moments when she questioned whether her internal thoughts about him were justified and I think that this scene merely brought those to the surface. I really enjoyed the fight between Jaime and Brienne despite it being truncated from the version presented in the books. However, this decision made complete sense to me. This show isn't The Matrix or Kill Bill and cannot afford to spend eight to ten minutes presenting an absurdly unrealistic, albeit visiaully stimulating, fight scene. I think that one of the great strengths of ASOIAF is the unflattering depiction of battle and war that Martin presents and this fight was a good representation of that. Swordfights aren't beautiful dances, they are brutal and occasionally plodding. I honestly thought that this was realistic and Jaime's apparent incompetence was a result of his shackling / imprisonment / rust. We also got a Howland Reed shout out, which was awesome.

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uh...wut. that was Summer. Unless I missed something. Did I miss something?

22 minute markish, it's her watching in the woods as the Starks and their men pass by. Reddish nose. Grey Wind is all grey.

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22 minute markish, it's her watching in the woods as the Starks and their men pass by. Reddish nose. Grey Wind is all grey.

I think that's supposed to be Grey Wind

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The Sansa scene with Margaery and the Queen of Thorns is well done, but other than missing the jester singing the Bear song (to drown out the conversation from any spies from the Lannister camp) and few missing details (the promise of marriage - which I assume will either be dropped or introduced later), its pretty much word for word Martin. Or at least as close as an adaption can come. If anything, given TV Sansa is older and little more jaded/wiser than book Sansa, you could actually make the case, that the Tyrell's should have to at least promise a way out before she would divulge any information - especially given how she didn't spill to Shae about Littlefinger in the previous scene. Stil, no real issues with that.

But there are some terrible scenes populated throughout this episode:

1. The Catelyn guilt over Jon, spilling to Talisa no less was I guess it was an attempt to rebuild our sympathies for Cat, but it fell flat for me. And why is she telling Talisa of all people? I guess they bonded on the open road. Have they even had a conversation at this point in the series?

2. Karstark lamenting Robb's decision to marry Talisa. It's an odd choice for Karstark to voice this concern. Have they even addressed what impact the marriage had at this point? Or the problem of the Frey's letting cross the Twins. I can't recall anyone mentioning the Frey's forces returning to the Twins. Poor tv only viewers must be very confused.

3. Two scenes with the Reeds, but no explanation about why they are there other than the tv staple --- we came for you. Which always drives me nuts, because you never get the normal response -- what the heck does that mean? No, lets just talk about our dads common history and why don't you come along for the long walk.

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22 minute markish, it's her watching in the woods as the Starks and their men pass by. Reddish nose. Grey Wind is all grey.

It was Greywind. They probably just had to use a different wolf.

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The Jaime and Brienne fight scene was extremely disappointing. She toyed with him. First he and and Ned go toe to toe in the show then he gets absolutely embarrassed by Brienne. Are DnD deliberately making it look like Jaime's martial skills were very highly overrated? Other than that and the Shae scene, it was a decent episode.

Edited by Dain Stark

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I don't know why so many reviews bashed the Theon scenes. He was such a huge part of last season, to have him disappear for two seasons and come back a completely fucked up mess would be a big let down for people that really enjoyed his storyline last season. Plus, we can't get into Theons head like we can Reeks in the book, so we don't get to understand what happened to him at the Deadfort. The scenes in the show will truly show viewers how horribly he was tortured and will feel that feeling book readers have about Reek.

As for the scenes themselves, I was cringing the whole time...it was awesome. The fingernail scene. Omg.

Another scene I loved was the Olenna lunch with Sansa scene. I got a little teared up when Sansa was finally letting out her feelings about Joff.

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22 minute markish, it's her watching in the woods as the Starks and their men pass by. Reddish nose. Grey Wind is all grey.

You're an imaginative one. Although I can't be too hard on you; the first time I saw the opening scene of S2 epidode 4, I thought it was Nymeria who jumped out and mauled the Lannister guard who farted. Wishful thinking I guess.

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The Jaime and Brienne fight scene was extremely disappointing. She toyed with him. First he and and Ned go toe to toe in the show then he gets absolutely embarrassed by Brienne. Are DnD deliberately making it look like Jaime's martial skills were very highly overrated?

In the first fight I had the feeling Jaime was toying with Ned. In this one it looked the opposite, though that could be explained by Jaime's weakness and the way they've changed Brienne into a cold blooded veteran killer.

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It was Greywind. They probably just had to use a different wolf.

The wolves are cgi, so there's no reason for color to be incorrect. And it is a good way to,reintroduce Nymeria. It shows she's there, which she is, that she's still connected to the Starks, which she is, but that she's separate, which she is.

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You're an imaginative one. Although I can't be too hard on you; the first time I saw the opening scene of S2 epidode 4, I thought it was Nymeria who jumped out and mauled the Lannister guard who farted. Wishful thinking I guess.

That's clearly Grey Wind, he went into battle with Robb.

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Unrelated to anything, Leda Headey got more beautiful this season. Anyone else think so?

That's clearly Grey Wind, he went into battle with Robb.

Yes, he did. Which is why it was also clearly Grey Wind in this episode as well. Are you being goofy?

Edited by Khal Pono

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I understand why people think that these first two episodes have been poorly paced, but I think that perspective is a result of watching the show week to week. In terms of HBO's programming I've always felt that GoT is closest to The Wire in terms of pacing and story structure. Both series are detrimented when watched with such large gaps between episodes and the pacing / story structure really smooths out into a cohesive whole when watched sequentially (as so many people are watching TV series' these days). I think that at the end of this season that these two episodes will be much more highly regarded when looked at as portions as a whole rather than in a vacuum.

I thought after 16+ seasons of Sopranos, Deadwood, Six Feet Under, etc, that people would be used to the format by now. We still see many crazy criticisms about "the first few episodes were slow but they speed up later" as if it's new insight. It's like complaining about how something bad always happens at the end of Act 2 during a 3 act play. Ummm ...

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The wolves are cgi, so there's no reason for color to be incorrect. And it is a good way to,reintroduce Nymeria. It shows she's there, which she is, that she's still connected to the Starks, which she is, but that she's separate, which she is.

The wolves aren't cgi (not fully). They're shot against green screen and scaled up and placed in shot. The nose not being dark was a slight oversight or they didn't think it mattered. Still, it wasn't Nymeria. Just doesn't make sense.

Edited by ManyFacedOne

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I really enjoyed the episode and would give it a B+ / A-. I understand why people think that these first two episodes have been poorly paced, but I think that perspective is a result of watching the show week to week. In terms of HBO's programming I've always felt that GoT is closest to The Wire in terms of pacing and story structure. Both series are detrimented when watched with such large gaps between episodes and the pacing / story structure really smooths out into a cohesive whole when watched sequentially (as so many people are watching TV series' these days). I think that at the end of this season that these two episodes will be much more highly regarded when looked at as portions as a whole rather than in a vacuum. Substantively I loved the Jaime / Brienne scenes and Olenna Tyrell. She is the Dowager Countess of Westeros and Diana Rigg simply owned the part. Obviously the most controversial scene of the night was Cat's monologue to Talisa regarding Jon Snow. I added a much longer description of my thoughts in the thread dedicated to this topic, but I think that those claiming the scene was "Character Assassination" are being somewhat bombastic. At the end of the scene it came back to Cat ultimately being unable to love Jon and musing on the absurdly horrible circumstances that have befallen her family. We all think and say bizarre things in moments of extreme emotion, and I think that this scene brought that to life. I always found it hard to believe when I read the books that Cat didn't have more conflicted feelings about Jon There had to have been moments when she questioned whether her internal thoughts about him were justified and I think that this scene merely brought those to the surface. I really enjoyed the fight between Jaime and Brienne despite it being truncated from the version presented in the books. However, this decision made complete sense to me. This show isn't The Matrix or Kill Bill and cannot afford to spend eight to ten minutes presenting an absurdly unrealistic, albeit visiaully stimulating, fight scene. I think that one of the great strengths of ASOIAF is the unflattering depiction of battle and war that Martin presents and this fight was a good representation of that. Swordfights aren't beautiful dances, they are brutal and occasionally plodding. I honestly thought that this was realistic and Jaime's apparent incompetence was a result of his shackling / imprisonment / rust. We also got a Howland Reed shout out, which was awesome.

Great points

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