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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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I agree; she's just teasing him and giving him grief for checking out other women. She's not seriously mad.

Yeah, it's called having a relationship with a girl. They do this stuff all the time. To me it just seemed like a playful scene between two people in love. They have to keep some of these characters involved for continuity/viewership purposes, unlike the books, which go complete books without scenes.

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Oh and I love Cersei's little quips about the way Margaery dresses! When Joffrey has that tiny square of fabric in his hand and Cersei said that he can give it to Margaery for a dress, but it might be too much fabric! I love Marg's dresses. And Cersei's. And the dresses the prostitutes wear. Someone should do a clothing line around the series!

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I think we need to accept the fact that Cat has been completely assassinated on the show. Her entire character is a walking tragedy. Almost every scene is her having to mourn a new event. Every event in the books that actually develops her character (Riverrun) has been taken out or delayed to the point where we just get a truly miserable woman. The acting has been great. I cannot blame the actress at all. The writing however has been down right atrocious. TV Cat is an awful monotone shallow character that needed a ridiculous and completely made up story to give her any trace of intrigue. Pathetic.

To be fair, Book Cat's internal monologue was fairly grief stricken and tragic. I dislike that they're making Robb kind of a hapless king who seems oblivious to the SUPER obvious discord in his ranks, but maybe they feel they need a ton of foreshadowing not to lose the TV audience when the RW occurs. But, overall they've really butchered the Robb/Cat story since last season and it continues to veer off more and more.

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It was an EXTREMELY lazy effort of incorporating Tom O' Sevens into another character.

This makes me wonder. Since they chose to leave out Tom but make Thoros the singer, who will go to Riverrun later when Jaime takes it? It cant be Thoros.

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I believe the note to Robb did say that Bran and Rickon are dead, he was simply withholding the information from his mother to spare her more grief, and will tell her the truth of the note in a future episode. I could be wrong, though.

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I thought it was excellent overall. Some thoughts on the show/comments.

Shae - I'll hold judgement on what the character is until the "end." I think part of it is the fact she's written to obviously have english as a second language, so everything she says should be broken and disjointed. Not sure why she holds Sansa in such high regard, unless she's going to be more of a sympathetic figure to Sansa/Tyrion. Also could see the jealously thing worked in from the wedding.

Reeds - seem much better than in the books - like Jojen's "coolness."

Karstark/Robb conversation - seemed correct to have that pointed out explicitly, but yeah, are the Frey's still with them? That needs to be clarified. I think most people have completely forgotten about the Freys.

Talisa/Robb - I like they are showing the conflict in Robb between his duty and his personal feelings. Many book readers seem to think loyalty/duty/honor trump love, but the show is taken a much different approach to this.

Joff/Maegery - This wasn't to show another sadist rant by Joff, it was to show how she "plays the game," so to speak. Done unbelievably well.

QOT - awesome, didn't miss the song one bit.

Brienne/Jaime - his hands were bound, obviously he was going to lose.

Sam scene - Liked the part were Rast was made to be in charge of Sam - very army/team building thing to do.

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This makes me wonder. Since they chose to leave out Tom but make Thoros the singer, who will go to Riverrun later when Jaime takes it? It cant be Thoros.

Yeah. IDK maybe they'll have Anguy infiltrate as a sell-arrow? Whatever the sellsword equivalent of an archer is.

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Karstark/Robb conversation - seemed correct to have that pointed out explicitly, but yeah, are the Frey's still with them? That needs to be clarified. I think most people have completely forgotten about the Freys.

True. I thought Karstark was implying that the Freys were/are leaving, but the whole point of the RW is that Robb thinks the Freys are like "Nah, we're cool! Let's seal being cool with you with wedding Edmure to Roslin." Then.. bang, we're not cool.

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thats wut the wheelbarrow is 4, k?

Yes of course, I get it ;) but I was thinking more ahead, when they reach the snow, but again they can adjust it to become some kind of sled. However my point was simply that the actor is growing very fast, his voice is changing and it will become more and more strange to see him as Bran.

Was I the only one who loved the Jaime/Brienne fight? It's much more technical and skill-based than all the others in the show. Instead of the classical hit and miss of most movies and shows, this one is all about momentum and stamina. I could almost spot a stamina bar over Jaime's head draining after each block or attack.

I'm really fine with the fight, I mean I didn't love it, but I liked it fine. It was very clear for me that Jaime could not fight as he used to after all he faced in the recent events, so considering that and the fact that he had his hands tied and that Brienne is really tall and strong, he could not endure much, like you I also could see his stamina bar draining.

I thought after 16+ seasons of Sopranos, Deadwood, Six Feet Under, etc, that people would be used to the format by now. We still see many crazy criticisms about "the first few episodes were slow but they speed up later" as if it's new insight. It's like complaining about how something bad always happens at the end of Act 2 during a 3 act play. Ummm ...

Totally agree! And considering the amount of characters in the show, for me it's natural that they have to start in a slower pace. I guess that book readers forget that there are loads of people watching it that didn't read any of the books so unlike us they don't know all the names and facts ahead. I recall when I read the first book for the first time and I had a very hard time at first with all the characters. Here at home I watch with people that didn't read the books and they have questions all the time about the characters.

No one's said much about the Orrell scene; perhaps it wasn't that memorable.

I thought it was a great introduction to this character--very creepy and unnerving, and McKenzie Crook played it well.

I really liked the scene too, creepy as you said and I'm looking forward Orrell's scenes in the series, because it will be cool to see Crook playing a more serious character.

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True. I thought Karstark was implying that the Freys were/are leaving, but the whole point of the RW is that Robb thinks the Freys are like "Nah, we're cool! Let's seal being cool with you with wedding Edmure to Roslin." Then.. bang, we're not cool.

Yeah, I guess that's true - they'll show up in Riverrun, bring in Edmure, work that out with the Frey's, then have the RW. That makes sense.

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Enjoyed this episode quite a bit. I still have some serious reservations with the whole 'Loras for Willas' substitute that I'm almost positive they've set up (mainly because it has the potential to make Sansa look like an idiot), and the Cat stuff annoyed me (knew that going in), but I'm glad to see the QoT and Margaery really getting to shine. And finally the Reeds show up! So excited to see where that goes.

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What show were you watching? When Brienne gets mad at Jaime for insulting the late Renly and yanks his hair back to yell at him, she moves her mouth to within 1/4 inch of his lips... it doesn't get more tense than that.

Also, we have the bath scene coming up.

Lol, calm down :P

I was talking about the actual fight scene book vs show. The book version was quite sexually charged, whereas in the show it came across quite different. I love those two together in the books, the actors have great chemistry, and I agree the Renly scene was quite tense. However I'm not sold on the show's adaptation of the fight.

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In the scene where Talisa is just about to kiss Robb she looks exactly like the banjo playing retard from "Deliverance" :eek:

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I'm pretty sure I offered two solutions: follow the book, and show that they're still being hunted by the Others.

The scene was laughable. They just got attacked by an army of zombies and they look no different to the characters travelling through the Riverlands.

I'm following this page, but quick point here... do you expect them to be doing cartwheels through the snow? Or running for their lives? Ep 1, Jeor Mormont starts the show saying "everyone you know will be dead"... they didn't really focus on the Night's Watch this episode, but it's obvious they'll be able to reflect on what happened next episode. Plus the discontent in the ranks was there to see.

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About the Catelyn monologue, isn't it possible that it was just foreshadowing a possible future Lady Stoneheart reveal that she has known more about Jon Snow's true parentage all along? No matter if that turns out to be the much discussed R+L=J or not, it still fits. She could still resent him for the societal impact on Ned's character or possibly some other unknown revelation. Her piety would give ample motovation for both her praying for a young Jon's survival and her grief-addled belief that she is being punished for not upholding a promise to the gods. I'm not ready to say this is character assassination, it's just a new nuance.

Edited by house of no sigil

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What was hard to watch but great television - Theon. Wow! I cringed so hard when they went to cut off his finger. So, that guy who sets him free who was supposedly sent by his sister is Ramsay right? He's gonna have a little fun with a hunt next ep from what it looks like. I wish Ramsay didn't look so young and so much like Pod though. I pictured Ramsay a lot older than Theon but this guy looks younger.

Well, Iwan Rehon who plays "Boy" is about a year older than Alfie Allen.

I liked the espisode overall. Didn'r care much for the Shae scene and the Sam scene but the rest was all good. I like that they make an effort to show off the Bolton and Karstak banners to reinforce their importance and to show that the North is more than just Starks.

Also it was great seeing The Brotherhood, Paul Kaye did a great job as Thoros and I really liked him schooling Arya. Furthermore it seems that besides to add a bit of Tom O'Sevens to Thoros they added more than a bit of Lem to Anguy.

Diana Rigg looks exactly like my mental image of The Queen of Thorns, so either it's a great bit of casting or all old ladies look the same to me.

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On the whole I say meh. The scenes with Talisa or Shae offset those with the Reeds and Theon. And no Dany is a big MINUS. :(

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I was defending the show because I believed that D&D's deviations from the books had good motivations behind them. But then I began reading their interviews and I started to get the impression that they made a lot of the extremely unpopular changes (Dany losing her dragons and Robb/Talisa) simply because they thought they could make a better show with their own material. And then recently they called anyone who criticises their work "book fundamentalists" and mocked writers who work with themes. I also have a huge problem with the way nudity and sex are handled on the show. Most of it is simply gratuituous and completely misogynistic... and that's going to get worse this season - there's a scene in Littlefinger's brothel with a contortionist which is supposed to be disturbing. And apparently there's a rape attempt made against Theon.

Watching season two back, it's a complete mess (particularly episodes 4, 6 and 8). And it could have been far better had they stuck to the source material.

This is spot on. The fact is, they are totally wrong. Im hoping this season makes a turn for the better, because the last few episodes, and much of season 2 have already started a downward spiral.

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Why is everyone ragging on the whole Catelyn speech about Jon? Most of you are feeling it's a big deviation from her feelings towards Jon in the books, but it's really not. She admitted she hated Jon in the beginning of his birth. She wished for him to die but then realized that's a little too messed up. She then retracted her wish of death, and Jon lived. She said she WANTED/WAS CONSIDERING to push Ned to legitimize him, but then changed her mind because she still clearly hates him. Also, this kind of works to demonstrate how hating Jon (who is just as much a Stark as his siblings IMO) for no apparent reason came back to cause her family harm. I saw nothing wrong with scene.

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Lets agree to disagree then. Cause tonight the following wasn't IMHO:

1. Catelyn and Talisa

2. Karstark lamenting Robb's marriage to Talisa without any context

3. Shae with Tyrion - The character of Shae is just a hot mess, she is whatever the plot/dialouge needs her to be and not a real character with any real motivations. She wants to protect Sansa -- why? TV Shae is apparently street smart, but is willing to risk her to be Tyrion. Why exactly? She loves Tyrion - when did that happen? She also has a jealous streak -- why? the motivation to betray Tyrion I am guessing? But not that jealous, cause she gives him a blowjob anyways. Which sort of invalidates the jealousy angle... whatever, nevermind, hot mess!

4. The intro of the Brotherhood of Without Banners - shooting an arrow in the air to show what a bad ass I am - sigh

5. Two scenes with the Reeds, neither explaining why they are there other the obligatory, we are here for you, which is meaningless

6. The Wildlings and the Night's Watch - both scenes are far too long for the plot developments

The writing in this episode was particularly poor.

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