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[Book Spoilers] EP302 Discussion

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Qot was nice, Arya was amazing. Catelyn and Talisa was one of the worst scenes in every way. HBO is changing so much of her because they think she doesnt appeal to most of the audience.

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Couldnt they find at least one tree for north of the wall in the past 2 episodes. The way North of the wall is described is basically one big forest. Putting the NW scenes in a woods would add a great deal of atmosphere to those scenese. Honestly those scenes were almost amateurish in their direction and setting. No tension, no context, just bizarrely bad. Simply placing them in a forest with the attendant claustrophobic feel of not knowing what is around you would have added greatly to the scenese.

And sam is walking along and is called fat and immediately falls to his knees, just plain IDK dumb

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as you can see, i dont come here often, but the whole Cat arguments have forced my hand! :laugh:. i will start by saying that my non book reading wife was sobbing during this scene and said it was one of the best the show has had so far. i liked the scene too, it was harder for me to not be annoyed by talisa (who i hate,) than to disagree with what cat was doing. I think sometimes, especially for someone like GRRM, the show is a chance to revisit things that he wrote years ago, maybe things he might have done differently. Maybe after years of Cat haters, he and the writers wanted her to come off as most sympathetic. I think people forget too often that this is someone who has lost almost everyone she loves and has also had to betray the only person she currently has, put yourself in her shoes. It was also important for me that she said she WANTED to like Jon, but ultimately couldn't, so it isnt as much of a departure as people are making it out to be. It is easy in the show to portray hatred with a simple grimace or look on ones face. In the book it goes into much more detail. With Cat not going to Riverrun earlier, we miss out on a lot of sympathy building as well. As a whole i loved this episode and liked this scene, I would rather have a Cat that at least tried to like a person as good as Jon Snow and is admitting her faults. That being said, Talisa is just walking around a war asking people..."derrrr...WHATS WRONG?!"

Yeah dude I 100% agree with this. You said it better than I could.

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She wasn't anything to Jon his entire life. She didn't have anything to do with him. Since she doesn't actually owe him anything, nor is she expected to, she hasn't really done anything wrong except from a modern perspective that has markedly different values than her society and upbringing imparted to her.

Morally, she was wrong hands down. Doesn't matter if its a fake society, world whatever, blaming Jon for his existence, because of Ned was cray cray. Anyone would agree, it just wrong, he was a defenseless kid, a motherless one at that.........cold blooded.

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I trhink I finally realized why I hate TV Shae. It is because of the effect it has on Tyrion's character. One of Book Tyrion's serious faults is his self hatred-at his ugliness and his perceptions of his unworthiness for healthy relationships with women. This colors so much of his actions throughout ASOIAF, whether it is with his sister, Sansa, Penny, Shae, Tywin, Jamie, etc. TV Tyrion is far too confident in this regard and as result I find his character less interesting,thouh I love Dinklage's performance.

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I'm also surprised by the immense Shae hate I see here, because the actress really brings something to the role. Part of the problem I think people have with her is the odd cadence she uses, but it helps emphasize the exotic nature of Shae (and is probably part of the reason Tyrion falls for her). Unlike numerous other "foreign" characters who may as well be Westerosi in the show (Talisa or Thoros for example) there is a definite sense of otherness with Shae. In fact, comparing Shae with Talisa shows exactly why Shae is a good character in the show (while Talisa is one of the biggest mis-steps in the adaptation).

I'm sorry but I just don't feel that Sibel Kikelli can act. I admittedly haven't seen her in anything else, but tbh it doesn't really matter if she's winning Emmy's elsewhere - it doesn't change the fact that her performance here is imo, awful. It just sounds so wooden and stilted. The problem is not the accent.

Basically, Shae and Talisa are flipped from the books. In the books Shae is a one-note gold digger who somehow takes in Tyrion, while in the show Talisa is a one-note romantic love character. In the books the Shae character detracts from Tyrion because A. He shouldn't fall for that kind of thing and B. Why does it affect him so much during Dance. I don't buy how hung up he is in the books over a gold-digger, but I DO buy him being so hung up over this Shae characters betrayal (however it happens).

Oh yes, how silly of Tyrion, being hung up over murdering someone. She was just a gold-digger he shouldn't have cared. And yes he very well should fall for that sort of thing: as you say yourself characters should have flaws. Tyrion's is his issues with love and with women.

On the other end of the spectrum, the Jeyne character adds to Robb in the book, showing he has the same flaw as his father (his honor). In the show however, her substitute (Talisa) really dumbs down his characterization into a simple doomed love story kind of thing.

Well I agree here entirely. A fan of Talisa I am not.

I understand why D&D decided to emphasize Shae over Jeyne/Talisa (Tyrion is much more important long run than Robb basically, so if you have to pick which one is going to be more fleshed out, it ought to be Tyrion) but it still majorly damages Robb's character.

But it's not a matter of focus. Both characters have sizeable amounts of screen time and both could have been written equally well. Instead both were written equally worse.

So can someone explain to me why the show Shae is so terrible aside from "bad acting"? The worst part about show Shae is that the actress doesn't sell her connection to Sansa all that well, but her connection with Tyrion is MUCH more important, and in that respect she does a fine job showing why she isn't just another whore to Tyrion.

But that's the whole point of her interactions with Tyrion: that she is, in the end just a prostitute who doesn't care for Tyrion, demonstrating Tyrion's big, major flaw. Having Shae be genuine in her affections takes away from that. And like Talisa, it's another instance of D+D's obsession with sassy badass women, turning every single character they can into such and neglecting those that they can't.

And then of course there's the bad acting.

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Did anybody else feel like the first episode seemed to fly by really fast, and this one seemed really long?

It's weird, because I didn't like this episode any less, and the structure/setup was pretty similar.

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And sam is walking along and is called fat and immediately falls to his knees, just plain IDK dumb

Yeah I don't know what's going on with the NW scenes so far. I thought it was stupid as well. I mean I feel bad for the guy, but in the book he falls down because he's so exhausted physically and emotionally from the Fist and the walk thereafter. On the show, he falls down after being called fat and because his two friends left him behind, who also admit it's because he's fat/slow.

Yes, Sam's fat, the token fatty, let's keep pointing it out. Psh.

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NO BEAR AND THE MAIDEN FAIR AND BUTTERBUMPS

O we get Bear and Maiden Fair , but later, in a different context, it seems.

Butterbomps has been rendered.

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I'm also surprised by the immense Shae hate I see here, because the actress really brings something to the role. Part of the problem I think people have with her is the odd cadence she uses, but it helps emphasize the exotic nature of Shae (and is probably part of the reason Tyrion falls for her). Unlike numerous other "foreign" characters who may as well be Westerosi in the show (Talisa or Thoros for example) there is a definite sense of otherness with Shae. In fact, comparing Shae with Talisa shows exactly why Shae is a good character in the show (while Talisa is one of the biggest mis-steps in the adaptation).

Basically, Shae and Talisa are flipped from the books. In the books Shae is a one-note gold digger who somehow takes in Tyrion, while in the show Talisa is a one-note romantic love character. In the books the Shae character detracts from Tyrion because A. He shouldn't fall for that kind of thing and B. Why does it affect him so much during Dance. I don't buy how hung up he is in the books over a gold-digger, but I DO buy him being so hung up over this Shae characters betrayal (however it happens).

On the other end of the spectrum, the Jeyne character adds to Robb in the book, showing he has the same flaw as his father (his honor). In the show however, her substitute (Talisa) really dumbs down his characterization into a simple doomed love story kind of thing.

I understand why D&D decided to emphasize Shae over Jeyne/Talisa (Tyrion is much more important long run than Robb basically, so if you have to pick which one is going to be more fleshed out, it ought to be Tyrion) but it still majorly damages Robb's character.

So can someone explain to me why the show Shae is so terrible aside from "bad acting"? The worst part about show Shae is that the actress doesn't sell her connection to Sansa all that well, but her connection with Tyrion is MUCH more important, and in that respect she does a fine job showing why she isn't just another whore to Tyrion.

Um no. Having no serious flaws makes your character alien and unrelatable. One crucial piece to being sympathetic is being human, and being human means making mistakes.

You answered your own question. CHanging Shae, changed Tyrion into a character without flaws.

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Putting my two-cents in about that Catelyn scene-

It seemed OOC for me if we're thinking about Cat in the books, but I'd imagine it's a deliberate ploy to make her as sympathetic as possible before the RW.

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i think the sheer number of POV characters is affecting the show. they are getting hardly a few minutes of screentime to each which in my opinion is making the story go really slow

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And like Talisa, it's another instance of D+D's obsession with sassy badass women, turning every single character they can into such and neglecting those that they can't.

Shit, I never noticed that. Now I can't unsee it. I think they do that with every even slightly major female.

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Nah! She's just manipulating Joff and trying to pass off as innocent. Joff would probably wouldn't be so keen on sweet, orphan kissing Marg if he knew she was willing to have threesomes with her brother and Renly.

Joff the prude.... one would have to think that through again.

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Yeah I don't know what's going on with the NW scenes so far. I thought it was stupid as well. I mean I feel bad for the guy, but in the book he falls down because he's so exhausted physically and emotionally from the Fist and the walk thereafter. On the show, he falls down after being called fat and because his two friends left him behind, who also admit it's because he's fat/slow.

Yes, Sam's fat, the token fatty, let's keep pointing it out. Psh.

TBH, I think i'd point it out too. Not in a "haha fatass" type of way but in a " You've hiked and camped for hundred of miles, eating the same amount of food i have. How are you still fat!" way.

I wonder how they will incorparate sam the slayer(if they do) into the show. I heard that they might have him slay a wight protecting gilly but then get really out numbered before coldhands comes ot the rescue.

Edited by Completely Headless Ned

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Eh, I'm not sure the word "sympathetic" is being used in the best manner here.

I'd say it humanizes her, by providing context for her failings. And I don't think that story excuses her actions, in fact in some ways it accentuates the wrongfullness of them. I think it makes her character more appropriately tragic in the classical sense of the word, and adds depth in regards to how her bad choices and flaws have affected the world around her.

I think it works in the context of the TV show.

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A good homage to Reek, having Ramsay pretend to be the cleaning boy who is actually an emmissary from Asha Yara sent to aid in his escape. That's going to really screw with Theon's head.

Arya scenes: great. Having the Hound out Arya had rather a rushed feel to it, but it does show how badass the Hound is, given he had no particular reason to have paid Arya any attention, yet he recognises her trying to do her best impression of a peseat boy.

My Isaac (Bran) has [physically] matured. Nice solution to the problem of an ever growing Bran and how Hodor is going to move him around. Great Intro of Jojen and Meera. I think we need as many scenes with Osha and Meera as possible because that's set up for a nice bit of female badass rivalry as chief protector of the merry little brand hiking north. I think, because Rickon will actually be old enough to be interesting, when the group splits we might see the show keeping tabs on Rickon and [probably] Meera. As long as the show doesn't spoil us as to Rickon's ultimate destination before TWoW tells us.

Talissa and Robb continue to be the bore of the show. But I did like the reveal about what the people of Essos think of Westerosi. Kraznys was rather disdaining of Westerosi, but then he's an evil slaver, so his opinion doesn't count for much in the audience's mind.

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ASOIAF fanatic ( "I hate the series" ) book fans are like Harry Potter book fans on viagra, they're even bigger dicks.

I am incredibly impressed with this series and I would classify myself as a massive book nerd of the series as well. I thought this episode was incredible! I loved nearly everything about it. To be honest I pity the people that are still not happy, because they are not enjoying it as much as the majority of the other book fans. I think the quality of episodes is only going to improve from the reviews I have heard. I heard the word "goosebumps" being used by a reviewer for episode four, it might have been Ran but I am not sure.

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