[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[cybobbie]

It was strange to watch, but since Cat from the show is so far from Cat from the show in many aspects for a while now, I don't get too upset about it, not anymore. I mean I've decided a while ago to stop comparing them. I just hope that somehow they make sense for Cat from the show role in the story, because at the moment I'm lost on what they will do about the character.

[teemo]

It doesn't feel very "Tully-like" and characteristic of Cat at all to call herself a murderer and "the worst woman who ever lived" because she wasn't so happy about having a bastard...Cat was probably nice compared to most highborn women who have to deal with their husband's bastards. Cat let Jon eat in the dining hall, become close to her children...I can understand some of that monologue but I think they went too far when she started calling herself a murderer. True, she's grief stricken, but that's just weird...

[wolverine]

I added the script in the OP.

Can someone please explain why they think Catelyn blames all of the horrors that came to her family on not taking care of Jon Snow? She thinks it's karma...or what? I don't understand that. I've bolded the parts that I can't ever imagine Cat saying/thinking:

She doesn't. She blames it on not keeping a promise to the Gods.

[wolverine]

It doesn't feel very "Tully-like" and characteristic of Cat at all to call herself a murderer and "the worst woman who ever lived" because she wasn't so happy about having a bastard...Cat was probably nice compared to most highborn women who have to deal with their husband's bastards. Cat let Jon eat in the dining hall, become close to her children...I can understand some of that monologue but I think they went too far when she started calling herself a murderer. True, she's grief stricken, but that's just weird...

She felt guilty because she prayed for an innocent baby to die because she was jealous of the mother, not because she "wasn't so happy about having a bastard."

She let him eat in the dining hall? So he was treated like a medieval hound? Thats nice.

[UselessOpinion]

I think they're just trying to make it easier to sympathize with a character that's difficult to sympathize or empathize with. It's like what they tried to do with Tywin and Jaime's being dyslexic, but it didn't do it for me.

[teemo]

She felt guilty because she prayed for an innocent baby to die because she was jealous of the mother, not because she "wasn't so happy about having a bastard."

She let him eat in the dining hall? So he was treated like a medieval hound? Thats nice.

sorry, didn't mean to upset you...I'm just confused by the scene and trying to understand it. I took from the books that she was pretty generous compared to most, where bastards were just simply kicked out and live anonymously some place not so great...weren't some people in the books shocked that Jon Snow was allowed to eat with the family? That's why I mentioned that..

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Cat was probably nice compared to most highborn women who have to deal with their husband's bastards. Cat let Jon eat in the dining hall, become close to her children...

Does Cat have the power to allow Jon do or do not do anything? Because I've always thought that Jon being raised like a real Stark was something Ned ordered since he got there: being taught, trained and treated like a real brother of Robb's. What was Cat going to do? Leave? Take Robb with her and return to Riverrun? Remember that Cat thinks in book 3 about always doing what she's expected to do: she wouldn't argue with her husband about what to do with the boy he brought home and asked to be educated as he also has his name. That's pretty much the point of her resentment too: she doesn't know why Ned would treat his bastard like this, and probably she could have thought he did because she still loved the mother.

[NedStark2013]

The thing is I hope Show Wise Jon in the change would not take Winterfell Airship from Sansa, Arya Bran or Rickon for It would seem like Jon is more loyal to his kin then his Stark Ken is to him. Also Jon likely show wise sees no problem with Tyrion for they had this bond thing at the Wall. I know in the books he does except it but forget why or who he thinks is the air. But my point is I'd like to see Him Show wise be more conflicted in maybe conisdering taking the airship. But ultimately showing Sansa a bit more praise then Robb or Cat did.

[UselessOpinion]

sorry, didn't mean to upset you...I'm just confused by the scene and trying to understand it. I took from the books that she was pretty generous compared to most, where bastards were just simply kicked out and live anonymously some place not so great...weren't some people in the books shocked that Jon Snow was allowed to eat with the family? That's why I mentioned that..

I don't even think it was that Ned had a kid with another woman. I think it has more to do with Jon being a spitting image of Ned and her kids (minus Arya and Rickon) not so much. Jon's presence was a constant reminder of something she couldn't give Ned. At some point int he books I think she went into some spiel about how she could forgive Ned having a bastard or twenty bastards, but that the reminder of Jon itself is what ticked her off. The difference in ages between Rob and Arya is like what? 8 years? Imagine having to see your husbands bastard that looks just like him for 8 years.

[Jon Icefyre]

I thought the scene was amazing! I really don't see why there's all this outrage. Cat was clearly guilty about the way she treated Jon Snow by the end of her living arc in the novels. Obviously the tv series can't show all of Cat's thoughts and emotions in the same way the books can, and they only have 10 episodes per season. So they make these powerful over the top scenes that might be somewhat different than the books, and probably even a little too over the top compared to the books, but they have to do that to get the characters point/idea across in a single scene, as oppose to several pages/chapters that the books would normally give us.

[wolverine]

sorry, didn't mean to upset you...I'm just confused by the scene and trying to understand it. I took from the books that she was pretty generous compared to most, where bastards were just simply kicked out and live anonymously some place not so great...weren't some people in the books shocked that Jon Snow was allowed to eat with the family? That's why I mentioned that..

Don't know what in my post indicated I was upset, i'm not. I bolded part to show the difference between your reasoning and the actual reasoning.

Some people legitimized their bastards too. I don't know how generous she was by not defying her husbands command and kicking him out.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Imagine having to see your husbands bastard that looks just like him for 8 years.

OT: There is an old saying in my country, that denied bastards are always the vivid image of their fathers. Incredibly enough, I've actually seen that: kids whose fathers swear in name of every possible God they didn't father them being the exact image of them.

[teemo]

Don't know what in my post indicated I was upset, i'm not. I bolded part to show the difference between your reasoning and the actual reasoning.

Some people legitimized their bastards too. I don't know how generous she was by not defying her husbands command and kicking him out.

yeah, you're right. what i wrote is pretty much idiotic and unfounded then...thanks for the clarification :)

[Éadaoin]

I think they're just trying to make it easier to sympathize with a character that's difficult to sympathize or empathize with. It's like what they tried to do with Tywin and Jaime's being dyslexic, but it didn't do it for me.

I don't think Cat is unsympathetic at all.

[UselessOpinion]

I don't think Cat is unsympathetic at all.

I didn't say unsympathetic though :laugh:

I'm not on these boards as much as I'd like, but I think the general consensus is that people don't like Catelyn a great deal. There may be a poll... I don't know. I imagine a lot of people see her reactions as being irrational and very knee jerk which makes it hard for people to sympathize with her in light of all the negative consequences they tend to have. I see her actions and I understand them (or try to) but even then it's difficult for me to give her a pass.

[Pinkie Baelish]

I don't think Cat is unsympathetic at all.

Need I quote my "Catelyn is a pure villain" argument once again?

[StarkBlack21]

I have a feeling the internet will explode at the end of the season. I don't think we'll be getting Uncat or an Undead Cat. I think NYMERIA will save her. And she will be found and live, and just be scarred. When you really think about it, Cat can be scarred and vengeful, and it really doesn't change anything storywise.

[queenbeesteph]

It's a different tone of Cat than the book ever utilizes, and in that sense, yes, it's a departure. She wished he was dead, he almost died, she felt guilt over it and promised she'd do better -- she never did...cue more guilt. It sounds like the ups and downs of a complicated relationship. Hate is a tricky thing. Some days, you feel entitled to it, and others, you wonder if you're the asshole.

Cat still hates Jon Snow, and she admits that to Talisa..

You have to remember too, that Cat just lost her husband, her home, her father, and has no idea where her daughters and youngest sons are. She's a mess and it's important to show that.

Actually, it does make sense she's saying all that after she has lost all of her kids and husband: she believes is because she failed accepting Jon as a Stark and a son of hers, as she promised, the Gods are taking her family away. As far as she knows, the only son she got left is Robb and if he dies, the only Stark alive would be Jon. It makes sense the Gods would kill all the Stark kids except the bastard she couldn't love.

I believe you guys have nailed this scene! The one child, the ONE child, she cannot love is, quite possibly the only hope of carrying on the Stark name - and yet, she wouldn't let him have that name - even though she had promised. She has been on a very, very long journey and has, like stated,lost her husband, her father, warned her eldest son not to make the Freys his enemy and yet he did, she's been betrayed,she's been put in chains by her son, knows Sansa's held prisoner, has no idea where Arya is, etc... She's had time to reflect and as a mother knows that she should hold nothing against that baby, it wasn't the baby's fault he was born under the conditions he was, and she should pity that baby, but she just cannot - that baby (Jon) represents EVERY SINGLE THING that has gone wrong - she broke her word to her gods and her husband and these are the repercussions of that (in her mind). It was a great scene! It leaves us wondering what's next... and that's fantastic!

[wolverine]

I have a feeling the internet will explode at the end of the season. I don't think we'll be getting Uncat or an Undead Cat. I think NYMERIA will save her. And she will be found and live, and just be scarred. When you really think about it, Cat can be scarred and vengeful, and it really doesn't change anything storywise.

:ack:

[Rouge et Bleu]

My initial reaction when she said "Jon Snow" was all like, "WTF!?" However, the more I thought about the scene (and rewatched it several times) the more I enjoyed it. At the end of the monologue it still came back to her being unable to love Jon because she wasn't his true mother and represented Ned's greatest act of infidelity to her. I agree with several other posters on this thread who commented upon the extreme thoughts we often have in moments of overwhelming guilt / anguish / anger. Cat made a promise in a moment of guilt, and it was one that deep down she probably knew that she could never fulfill. This was not a "character assassination" by any stretch of the imagination. It was an insight into Cat's emotions at the absurdity that has befallen her family since Ned became the King's Hand and a sense of shame at her own actions. Nobody can hate a child for their entire existence, and there had to have been moments in book Cat's life where she questioned her feelings towards Jon. I think that this brought those unspoken moments to life. Also, as many astute posters have already pointed out, this was a great moment of possible foreshadowing for the series ala Jon's potential legitimization by Robb, and inducing sympathy for Cat pre-RW. Plus the scene was incredibly well acted.