[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[queenbeesteph]

^Well written, Rouge et Bleu! I agree!

[go joff go]

Personally I think this was just a setup scene for Robb naming Jon his heir, and that the hand wringing is kind of a wierd response to the scene.

[The Cast Beyond the Wall]

I'm not the biggest fan of Cat's character in the book series so I really appreciate the different angle they are trying to give her here. I'm not sure what kind of role this conversation may play, but I think it shows that despite her hatred, she wishes she could have brought herself to love Jon Snow. She feels somehow responsible for the atrocities that have fallen on her family's house.

[Stannis the Wight]

I know its hard for some people but you really do have to stop comparing it to the books.

This is my first season watching through the veil of the books and it definitely is a different perspective but honestly so far its been better than half of last season already (reading he books kinda diminished it for me because ACOK was so much better than season 2) but its only going to ramp up from here.

[dtones520]

When she said that everything that has happened wouldn't have happened, or everything would have been ok if she had only raised Jon as her own and let him take the Stark name, I was so freaking confused. How would that have changed what has happened to her family?

Because she feels like the gods are paying her back for how horrible she treated Jon as a child and for wishing death upon him.

I don't get how this scene is further butchering Catelyn? She is talking with Talisa about how she hated the thought of Jon so much that she prayed for him to die, he got the pox, she is like "holy shit, I didn't really mean that, I'm a horrible person", prays for him to live and vows that she will raise him as her own to help,bring him back and then once he is better, she spits in the gods face and treats him like shit for the rest of their time together.

How is that any different than book Cat other than us getting one brief story about how she didn't hate Jon for a couple days? Show Cat is a mother who is trying to protect her children and family and feels like everything she does is making things worse and is grief stricken because of this. How is that sooooo different than book Cat?

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

When she said that everything that has happened wouldn't have happened, or everything would have been ok if she had only raised Jon as her own and let him take the Stark name, I was so freaking confused. How would that have changed what has happened to her family?

You must remember that they are a superstitious people that believe the gods control their fate.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Because she feels like the gods are paying her back for how horrible she treated Jon as a child and for wishing death upon him.

I don't get how this scene is further butchering Catelyn? She is talking with Talisa about how she hated the thought of Jon so much that she prayed for him to die, he got the pox, she is like "holy shit, I didn't really mean that, I'm a horrible person", prays for him to live and vows that she will raise him as her own to help,bring him back and then once he is better, she spits in the gods face and treats him like shit for the rest of their time together.

How is that any different than book Cat other than us getting one brief story about how she didn't hate Jon for a couple days? Show Cat is a mother who is trying to protect her children and family and feels like everything she does is making things worse and is grief stricken because of this. How is that sooooo different than book Cat?

I don't know. Characters aren't robotic, there is no way at some point Cat felt some tenderness or mercy for the poor kid, specially being a baby. I always thought that, during Ned's pov in GoT, when she asked him about his origin, she could have been more open about loving him or accepting him if she had known about it. It's the whole mystery what put a wall (heh) between them.

[kingkiller]

I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that throughout the 15-16 (probably more in the show) years that Jon Snow lived at Winterfell that Cat never felt sorry for him once.

Ever hear the expression, "I wouldnt wish that on my worst enemy?" Well that is all this scene is really portraying. Cat as a mother felt sympathy for a sick and dying boy with no mother. If you feel like that betrays who Cat is then I don't know what to tell you.

All the stuff about being a mother to him and making him a Stark... well obviously that was all fantasy since she went right back to hating him once he got better. Are you telling me that you guys have never considered making a conscious effort to change your attitude towards a person?

Just seems to me that a lot of supposed Cat lovers would rather have her relationship with Jon remain a one-note unwarranted hatred rather than something she actually does feel guilty about.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

I think it's a bit ridiculous to assume that throughout the 15-16 (probably more in the show) years that Jon Snow lived at Winterfell that Cat never felt sorry for him once.

She did ask Ned about him, I doubt it was just plain curiosity about the mother. Had Ned said something like "yes, I felt tempted by some woman, and Jon is the consequence", maybe Cat could have been a bit more accepting or at least less resented towards the kid. It was Ned's stark - npi - answer that completely killed any intention of caring for the child: as far as young and newlywed Cat knew, Ned brought him home because he reminded him of his only true love, or the mother was still alive and Ned was just taking care of Jon until the time they got together again.

[Haymaker]

Have no problem what so ever with this scene and liked it. I think it actually adds to the character. In real life we would equate this emotion as "Catholic guilt" and it works perfectly with the religion Cat follows, which is equated to christianity basically.

I personally don't think she's all that different from book Cat. She's just not as fleshed out as in the books due to time, leading to shortcuts taken in her story. Disclaimer, I was never a big fan of Catelyn in the books to begin with, so maybe thats why I don't get the hate toward tv Cat and especially this scene.

[Lily Valley]

I appreciated this scene like all of the ones we have gotten from Margaery. The scene breaks to the wall and then a mirror of the pilot with Bran trying to shoot an arrow and all of his brothers there with Jojen's first appearance. This is really good editing. I don't think this is an accident.This is Cat's whole relationship with John in a nutshell and a curse on the Starks (ala hollywood) but still good data.

[kingkiller]

She did ask Ned about him, I doubt it was just plain curiosity about the mother. Had Ned said something like "yes, I felt tempted by some woman, and Jon is the consequence", maybe Cat could have been a bit more accepting or at least less resented towards the kid. It was Ned's stark - npi - answer that completely killed any intention of caring for the child: as far as young and newlywed Cat knew, Ned brought him home because he reminded him of his only true love, or the mother was still alive and Ned was just taking care of Jon until the time they got together again.

Cat having those fears early in their marriage totally makes sense, but Ned proved to her time and time again that he was true to her. She still took it out on Jon and not Ned. I mean I'm sure there were nights where she might have told Ned "I'm too tired" or to go sleep in the godswood because of him being good to Jon, but for the most part she completely got over Ned's infidelity. It was a non-factor in their marriage. Any fears she had early on turned to dust, yet she still hated Jon. It's not fair that she forgave Ned but hates Jon for something he had no part in, and she knows it.

[bluemoon]

Didn't bother me, but I don't seem to get as upset about changes as some do.

This ^^

[Faint]

My first thought as I was watching the scene was how this would affect the future scene concerning Robb's will, provided they include it in the show. Will Catelyn still be opposed?

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Cat having those fears early in their marriage totally makes sense, but Ned proved to her time and time again that he was true to her. She still took it out on Jon and not Ned. I mean I'm sure there were nights where she might have told Ned "I'm too tired" or to go sleep in the godswood because of him being good to Jon, but for the most part she completely got over Ned's infidelity. It was a non-factor in their marriage. Any fears she had early on turned to dust, yet she still hated Jon. It's not fair that she forgave Ned but hates Jon for something he had no part in, and she knows it.

I understand, but it's easier to forgive Ned as he, as you said, proved himself to never "fall" again, while all her negativity was targeted towards Jon, who was a walking reminder of what "Ned did".

I think it's not only that, though. One of Jon's memories of his childhood is to have innocently hinted that he was Lord of Winterfell and Robb saying he would never be because he's a bastard. They were about five years old, so, Cat's mind was maybe still worried about Jon being a threat to Robb's claim, even when there is nothing for her to fear. Or, it was Cat's way to remind young Jon that although Ned treated him like a legitimate son, he wasn't nor would ever be. This I can understand, I can understand Cat not wanting to share what belongs to her natural children with some boy she had no idea where he came from, specially if at some point, Ned could have casually mentioned to legitimize him.

Also, this is in the app, but it says that Cat and Robb arrived Winterfell after Ned and Jon. I can imagine Cat, being all exited about showing Ned their son for the first time, while Ned was already there with a baby who looked more like him than his legitimate son. Let's use a bit our imagination: Ned orders that the kid should be treated like he's a Stark, everybody gets crazy with a baby who probably was a miniNed, and Cat arrives with a baby who is a Tully. People talk and make awkward comments or remarks.

[Xerox in 4 Parts]

It's not character assassination, but it wasn't a good scene either. Catelyn did wish Jon dead in the books, but in an atypically stressful moment. The show made it seem like she wanted Jon dead all the time, which just sounds like fanboy hyperbole. Also the books never make Catelyn apologize all that much for her inability to accept, much less be a mother to Jon. This is because Martin fundamentally believes that Catelyn was put in unfair situation, even if she didn't handle it perfectly, and her refusal to let go of her anger is much like Sansa's refusal to kneel at her wedding (why should she, when nobody cares about her feelings?). The show makes no acknowledgment about how the situation was unfair to Catelyn and how that informs her anger. The show thinks it's just about Catelyn being a jealous insecure little wife, and doesn't ever acknowledge that most women in Westeros are not even asked by their husbands to raise their illegitimate children in the first place. The show's MO is, if she's humble enough then boys will like her. I'm not here for that.

For all the good things the show does, it's handling of Catelyn Stark is not one of them.

[TomBadgerlock]

It was awful. It's obvious why they did it, with Robb's legitimising of Jon to follow but, wow, it was a mess. As far as I'm concerned the scene with Robb & Jon in S1E2 was all they needed as foreshadowing leading up to Robb legitimising him. We saw, for a brief moment, how close they were.

[Delmas]

I enjoyed the scene, much better than the shae scene

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

Definitely enjoyed the scene, it wasn't nearly as bad as people feared. I think people are carrying their book!Cat prejudices to the show, and seeking validation from it.

[lannistergold]

I watched it and knew it would cause outrage, but I had no problem with it at all. I'm a Catelyn fan, I understand her hatred and treatment of Jon but don't condone it obviously. This scene just seemed to fill in one page of their long history together. Catelyn still hated Jon after this, but had a moment of weakness. We see her regretting what she said to Jon later in GoT, so I don't think it's unreasonable or out of character for her to have had previous moments of weakness with Jon.

QFT.

If Cat had nothing but contempt for Jon, it would reflect badly on her. Even the relatively good characters have character flaws, of course, but this is one that rankled a lot of fans. Clarifying that she had some compassion for him is something I'd always wanted, TBH. And it doesn't feel like a divergence from the character as Martin imagined her: she's pretty high-minded, even if she has some understandable chips on her shoulder.