[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[StarkBlack21]

TV Catelyn works better for TV.

[Minsc]

Sansa doesn't, it seems whenever she thinks of him its mostly as an afterthought. Arya and Bran love the crap out of him. The Stark kids seem to ignore it, but that doesn't mean Jon doesn't recognize it.

Sansa remembers him affectionately in AFOC, and Jon remembers her fondly also at various times. Moreover, their relationship seems good enough that he went to her for advice on how to talk to girls and so forth while she feels sympathy for him when she realizes that Wall wasn't made up only of Benjens but also scary ugly men in AGOT.

[Ser Greguh]

I think it would be going too far to say that Catelyn (in the books) "hated" Jon Snow. "Disliked" or "resented" would be more accurate IMHO. We later learn that she feels some guilt about this, when she's riding up to the Eyrie.

So, it seems that the series has exaggerated her feelings towards Jon, raising them to hatred at one extreme, and a great deal of remorse for this hatred, at the other.

Book Catelyn would never have prayed for Jon's death; but nor would she be very sorry if he did die. She wouldn't have been malevolent towards him, but would be quite happy never to see him again. And. if Ned had said he was sending him away to squire for one of his bannermen, she'd have been quite content with that.

This. In the Books, Catelyn's feelings toward Jon are fairly flat. The series is clearly very consciously amplifying the highs and the lows. I think it plays a lot better.

[David Selig]

Sansa doesn't, it seems whenever she thinks of him its mostly as an afterthought. Arya and Bran love the crap out of him. The Stark kids seem to ignore it, but that doesn't mean Jon doesn't recognize it.

There is no "it". In the 1000+ pages of Stark kids PoV isn't a single quote that shows Catelyn scolding any of them for being affectionate to him. Believe me, I'd love it if there was, but there isn't.

[Maia]

But clearly, Jon knew how Catelyn felt about him, and that if it was up to her, he'd be out of Winterfell.

And Ned knew that as well, yet he perpetuated this situation, fully aware that it was hurting both Cat and Jon.

Yes, yes, we know that he had his reasons, but Cat didn't know them - by Ned's own choice. So let's not transfer the blame from where it squarely belongs, eh?

If my wife cheated on me and had a baby, I'd be pissed at her, and she'd probably be my ex-wife, but if I treated that child more poorly than I'd treat any other child, I'd feel guilty.

So, you admit that you wouldn't raise this child as your own, then? I.e. that you hold Cat to a much higher moral standard than you do yourself? And Cat did feel somewhat guilty even so.

True, but the other poster was drawing an equivalency between Ned fathering a bastard, and Catelyn bearing one. And in Westeros, those two things are not equivalent.

Well, you do expect Cat to disregard Westerosi rules and conventions, possibly to the detriment of her own offspring, so why not expect the same of Ned? It is not like you give Cat a pass for adhering to how the things are done in Westeros, after all, so why should Ned get one?

[JMJ]

Clearly you didn't read her chapters at all then, because the show version is NOT the same AT ALL.

In the books, Catelyn is simply neutral to Jon (apart from one time when she's at her lowest point), and she never feels the need to apologise for this because she knows there is nothing wrong with her behaviour. Jon is not her child and he represents a danger to her family. She owes him nothing.

In the books, Catelyn does not identify herself as Jon's (step) mother. He's her husband's bastard; he has absolutely no connection to her.

In the books, Catelyn is not defined by her interaction with Jon Snow.

That's not really a cool way to rebut that statement. Because my interpretation of Cat differs from you, there's no need to say I didn't read the chapters on Cat. Not very mature, IMO.

Besides, being okay with this scene is not tantamount to saying Cat's character is defined by her interaction with Jon. It's just ONE SCENE in the show. I am certainly not extrapolating the one scene to Cat's entire character portrayal. Second, Cat in the books is not exactly "neutral" about Jon, as you put it. She has mixed feelings about him - that is made very clear in AGOT.

Also, keep in mind that for the TV format, the writers can't easily do a POV technique, so we can't really get inside a character's head like we can in the books. I saw that speech (like many others in the show) as the writers' "crutch" or at the very least technique to provide what they interpret as the thoughts going on inside a character's head. Talisa was there just as a prop to enable the viewer to hear Cat's thoughts. I personally think Cat definitely harbored the feelings she expressed to Talisa. The pox story was merely the vehicle to explain her mixed feelings about Jon.

Lastly, I just can't say with any certainty, but I believe, as others do, that this scene is also in part a setup for some of the action later. Whether it's Cat's eventual horror at seeing Robb die and realizing Jon will be the only surviving male "Stark", or if it's somehow going to tie into the whole R+L=J reveal in the show, I can't say.

[naik2902]

i dont think the cat talisa scene is weird where we see cat developing little soft corner towards jon.

if we go back in season 2 we see Jamie scene with cat where he ask why she hated Jon and further asks her why didnt she hated her beloved Ned too, who fucked another woman ?? i think that was major turning point for cat which made her turn little soft towards Jon. and that's where she somehow accepted that she had also did some bad things in her life.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I think it would be going too far to say that Catelyn (in the books) "hated" Jon Snow. "Disliked" or "resented" would be more accurate IMHO. We later learn that she feels some guilt about this, when she's riding up to the Eyrie.

So, it seems that the series has exaggerated her feelings towards Jon, raising them to hatred at one extreme, and a great deal of remorse for this hatred, at the other.

Book Catelyn would never have prayed for Jon's death; but nor would she be very sorry if he did die. She wouldn't have been malevolent towards him, but would be quite happy never to see him again. And. if Ned had said he was sending him away to squire for one of his bannermen, she'd have been quite content with that.

We must agree to disagree on our impressions of Catelyn. She hated Jon so much that she wanted so no name male in the Vale for Robb's heir, over Jon, her beloved Ned's own blood. She immediately had bad feelings toward Mya Stone because she was a bastard, then started to feel guilty about it, because Mya hadn't done anything to her. If that is not hate, I'm not sure what is. For obvious reasons Mya Stone and the climb was left out of the show.

[oakenhelm]

I didn't read the 2nd through the 8th pages, so I don't know if this has been hit upon. I wonder if this scene is setting up what we haven't seen in the books yet. I don't think Cat's arc in the books is done until she deals with Jon. She may need to help him in some way before she can move on and this scene on the show makes me wonder if they are setting that character arc up.

I agree. I think we have to be open to the possibility that rather than seeing Cat being "ruined" by the TV show, we were actually being spoiled to a degree by some unknown future event.

There are just too many possibilities. We don't know Stoneheart's end game. If she does end up saving Jon, last night's scene will make a lot more sense than just simply being indifferent to Jon

[UselessOpinion]

Sansa remembers him affectionately in AFOC, and Jon remembers her fondly also at various times. Moreover, their relationship seems good enough that he went to her for advice on how to talk to girls and so forth while she feels sympathy for him when she realizes that Wall wasn't made up only of Benjens but also scary ugly men in AGOT.

Alright fair enough. Though you're completely overlooking the fact that there were these microevents. Hell, the scene in the show I mentioned earlier was one of them.

There is no "it". In the 1000+ pages of Stark kids PoV isn't a single quote that shows Catelyn scolding any of them for being affectionate to him. Believe me, I'd love it if there was, but there isn't.

Fair enough there is no direct textual support for this, but I think there's plenty of subtextual support to infer this. As mentioned before, Martin has said that while her outburst in the Bran/Jon departing scene was an isolated incedent, there is a well established pattern of behavior of Cat being negflectful to Jon.

Here's the thing about trauma (whether its from abuse or something else): you can go your entirelife being subjected to something and not suffer negative consequences from it, though in many cases there are. All it takes for something to become traumatic are the right situations. Something like just having a generally bad day and then having something else go bad, even if it's miniscule and inconsequential, can really put a hurt on you.

I see the trauma and abuse Jon suffered at the hands of Cat as a sort of death by a thousand cuts. She never beat him, she never berated him over things (minus that one scene with Bran) but the looks and feelings she invoked in him did their job.

[David Selig]

I agree. I think we have to be open to the possibility that rather than seeing Cat being "ruined" by the TV show, we were actually being spoiled to a degree by some unknown future event.

There are just too many possibilities. We don't know Stoneheart's end game. If she does end up saving Jon, last night's scene will make a lot more sense than just simply being indifferent to Jon

No way in hell. Never going to happen in the books. It won't make any sense.

[SeanF]

The poor relationship between Catelyn and Jon really isn't the fault of either character. It's down to circumstances beyond the control of either of them.

One could say that Ned was just extremely selfish - were it not for the fact that most people - on this forum at least - consider that Ned has good reason not to reveal his true identity.

[Maia]

She hated Jon so much that she wanted so no name male in the Vale for Robb's heir, over Jon, her beloved Ned's own blood.

I guess that Robb hates his sisters a whole lot more then, because he desinherited them, "beloved Ned's own bood" in favor of a Black Brother, who is excluded from succession by laws thousands of years old. Laws so sacred that even the last scion of an Iron King upheld them.

Not to mention that if one of the girls was recovered, she could marry this Vale heir, retaining her inheritance after a fashion and blood ties of Starks with the Riverlands.

It is funny how some folk are totally cool with how things are done in Westeros when they apply to women, but are up in arms against how they apply to (male) bastards...

[SeanF]

I see the trauma and abuse Jon suffered at the hands of Cat as a sort of death by a thousand cuts. She never beat him, she never berated him over things (minus that one scene with Bran) but the looks and feelings she invoked in him did their job.

Jon had a better childhood than 99.9% of the population, as Donal Noye was at pains to make clear to him.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And Ned knew that as well, yet he perpetuated this situation, fully aware that it was hurting both Cat and Jon.

Yes, yes, we know that he had his reasons, but Cat didn't know them - by Ned's own choice. So let's not transfer the blame from where it squarely belongs, eh?

I think you're the one doing that.

I am not denying that, in Catelyn's mind, Ned could have avoided all that by sending Jon elsewhere. That still doesn't excuse Catelyn's treatment of a kid who had done nothing wrong. She transferred anger that justifiably should have been directed at Ned, to child who did nothing wrong. I'm arguing for shared guilt. Ned for fathering the bastard and bringing it home, Catelyn for the way she treated Jon.

So, you admit that you wouldn't raise this child as your own, then? I.e. that you hold Cat to a much higher moral standard than you do yourself?

It depends on whether I chose to stay married to the mother. If the father was completely/permanently out of the picture, and I chose to remain married and have the child raised in my home, I would absolutely raise it as my own. Punishing a child because of the sin of the mother or father is morally wrong, at least to me.

And Cat did feel somewhat guilty even so.

Why in the world should she feel guilt if she had absolutely nothing to feel guilty about?

This is an odd conversation, because I've long been a fan of Catelyn. I think the way she treated Jon was wrong, but I don't think it makes her an overall bad person. She had a wrong, but understandable, reaction to Jon. That doesn't make her evil, it just makes her human.

But it also doesn't make it right.

Well, you do expect Cat to disregard Westerosi rules and conventions, possibly to the detriment of her own offspring, so why not expect the same of Ned? It is not like you give Cat a pass for adhering to how the things are done in Westeros, after all, so why should Ned get one?

I don't. I'm not sure where you're getting any of this. As readers, we know that Ned is actually being incredibly honorable, so I'd give him a pass on that basis alone for bringing Jon to Winterfell. But assuming that isn't the case....

From Catelyn's perspective, and not assuming that Jon is Rhaegar's son, she has every right to be angry at Ned for fathering a bastard. She also has a right to be mad at him for bringing the boy back to Winterfell, although I'd point out that action actually damages Ned's reputation as well. What is understandable, though still not morally right, is her treatment of Jon. Which Catelyn herself implicitly acknowledges via subsequent feelings of guilt.

[KineticMD]

No way in hell. Never going to happen in the books. It won't make any sense.

Why is that? Stoneheart hates Freys and undoubtedly hates Boltons as well. Before he got stabbed at the end of Dance, Jon Snow was about to be in a position to fight both families (Stannis notwithstanding), many of whom are actually perpetrators of the Red Wedding (especially the Frey side). If she and the Brotherhood got wind of the situation in the North, going through with a resurrection would make perfect sense for facilitating the vengeance Stoneheart wants.

What wouldn't make sense is how she would be even remotely be close enough to the Wall to save Jon in time or how she would get knowledge of both the North's happenings and Jon's ambiguous "death".

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Yes, GRRM said that this was the only time she lashed out at Jon in this particular manner, but he also goes to great depths to describe how tumultuous the relationship actually was. So there was a negative pattern of behavior established in the text.

As for the apology, I have never said that she had to ride up to the wall and bring flowers. I am just saying that she never acknowledged to herself that her actions were wrong either through an apology or the thought of an apology at any time.

In my mind, Catelyn Stark is not exonerated for her treatment of Jon Snow in any way on the books. I also feel like it makes the character richer and more believably human. She is one of my favorites.

I agree with this. If the author and creators' intentions were clear we would not be discussing it. So either, it was an error on GRRM's part or it was intentional in order to create debate. Cat was never a favorite of mine, although, I do like the character.

[Minsc]

there is a well established pattern of behavior of Cat being negflectful to Jon.

Again neglect implies she owes him something which she didn't. Simply, she ignored him and didn't act like his mother because she wasn't. It is not different then how Ned refused to play daddy for Theon, despite Theon's wishes, because he wasn't his father yet no one argues Ned was abusive/neglectful to him.

[oakenhelm]

No way in hell. Never going to happen in the books. It won't make any sense.

Because of logistics or because of what we think of how Cat feels toward Jon/other motivations?

[UselessOpinion]

Jon had a better childhood than 99.9% of the population, as Donal Noye was at pains to make clear to him.

So? Rich pampered kids get screwed up too just take a look at any kid star these days. You can have all the wealth in the world, if someone disrupts your family structure (Cat) it can screw you up too.

Donal Noye's critique about Jon is more about him being smug to the lowborn recruits of the watch than anything else.