[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[Ran]

That's a very fine comparison, Minsc, I think. It highlights the double-standard most run eith.

[Katsa]

It is certainly interesting to see how this discussion is going. On one extreme side, we have fans who think that Cat is the reincarnation of evil for choosing not to love a child that isn't hers. On the other extreme side, we have fans who think that Jon should consider himself lucky for not being physically abused or murdered by Cat.

From mere observation, I think this scene is generally well liked by TV-only fans or book fans who hate Cat. I think that if they've cut out the part where Cat prayed for his death (i.e. just stick to pray for him to be gone), the scene would have been slightly better.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

I guess that Robb hates his sisters a whole lot more then, because he desinherited them, "beloved Ned's own bood" in favor of a Black Brother, who is excluded from succession by laws thousands of years old. Laws so sacred that even the last scion of an Iron King upheld them.

Not to mention that if one of the girls was recovered, she could marry this Vale heir, retaining her inheritance after a fashion and blood ties of Starks with the Riverlands.

It is funny how some folk are totally cool with how things are done in Westeros when they apply to women, but are up in arms against how they apply to (male) bastards...

That is silly. They think that Ayra may be dead and he did not want The Lannisters to gain control of Winterfell through Sansa via her marraige to Tyrion. It's pretty well spelled out.

[UselessOpinion]

Again neglect implies she owes him something which she didn't. Simply, she ignored him and didn't act like his mother because she wasn't. It is not different then how Ned refused to play daddy for Theon, despite Theon's wishes, because he wasn't yet no one argues Ned was abusive to him.

Theon would. And that's the point. Everything is subjective. Theon's hurt and resentful because he wanted nothing more than to be a Stark but there was always Ned's duty a hostage keeper preventing that from happening. This is pretty much the same with Jon. It seems like an inability on your part to empathize with the characters.

[Ran]

The appropriate middle ground is that Ned inflicted an untenable situation on both Catelyn and Jon, and they are victims of his secrets.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

TV Catelyn works better for TV.

Yes, they've changed Catelyn, Cersei and Sansa for TV in order to make their characters more sympathetic, which I don't have a problem with.

[Pixi Penrose]

I think that this is one of the less intrusive changes that D&D has made on the character of Catelyn. Her letting Jaime go before finding out about Bran and Rikon and her telling Ned Stark not to go to King's Landing were far greater changes in my opinion.

This story, while completely made up, seemed to stay consistent with what we know of her from the books. She is compassionate, worships the seven, and doesn't love Jon Snow.

The only issue I took with the dialog is when she tried to blame everything that had happened on not being able to love Jon. That is an incredibly illogical leap of conclusion.

:agree:

[StarkTagaryen]

I think that this is one of the less intrusive changes that D&D has made on the character of Catelyn. Her letting Jaime go before finding out about Bran and Rikon and her telling Ned Stark not to go to King's Landing were far greater changes in my opinion.

This story, while completely made up, seemed to stay consistent with what we know of her from the books. She is compassionate, worships the seven, and doesn't love Jon Snow.

The only issue I took with the dialog is when she tried to blame everything that had happened on not being able to love Jon. That is an incredibly illogical leap of conclusion.

this scene was excellent foreshadowing for her character but I was also torn because it's not something that was in the books but at the same time so much of Cat's chapters are internal and she often voices her disdain for Jon so it doesn't really change her that much but makes her a more hardened person like a STONE.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Again neglect implies she owes him something which she didn't. Simply, she ignored him and didn't act like his mother because she wasn't. It is not different then how Ned refused to play daddy for Theon, despite Theon's wishes, because he wasn't his father yet no one argues Ned was abusive/neglectful to him.

Theon wasn't a bastard missing a parent. He had a very real father, and Ned actually treating him as a son/calling him a son would have been bizarre. He was a foster child but also, technically, a hostage.

But even apart from that, I think Ned treated Theon much better than Catelyn ever treated Jon. He took him on their outings together, and it's quite clear that Theon felt some affection for Ned. He included Theon in family events as much as possible, hunting with the other boys, etc., without any hint of resentment at doing so.

Whereas it's pretty clear that Catelyn's view of Jon was the opposte. She wanted Jon gone, and Jon well knew that. She refused to even let him stay in the castle when Ned left, forcing him to the Wall. Catelyn had an antipathy and dislike for Jon that had no equivalent in Ned's treatment of Theon. Again, would Theon have avoided going in to see Bran if Ned were there, as Jon very clearly did so with Catelyn? By way of perspective, it's impossible imagine Ned ever displaying the bitterness of "it should have been you" to Theon, because he had absolutely zero ill will of any kind towards him.

[pobeb]

Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night.

Jon survives the "long night" with the help of Catelyn's "prayers"...

Oh these showrunners...

[UselessOpinion]

It is certainly interesting to see how this discussion is going. On one extreme side, we have fans who think that Cat is the reincarnation of evil for choosing not to love a child that isn't hers. On the other extreme side, we have fans who think that Jon should consider himself lucky for not being physically abused or murdered by Cat.

Yea that dichotomy really seems to pop out around here. I don't think she's the reincarnation of evil though. I understand her (or try to), but I dislike her for reasons that don't pertain to her relationship with Jon.

[Minsc]

Theon would. And that's the point. Everything is subjective. Theon's hurt and resentful because he wanted nothing more than to be a Stark but there was always Ned's duty a hostage keeper preventing that from happening. This is pretty much the same with Jon. It seems like an inability on your part to empathize with the characters.

I feel for both Theon(my favorite character) and Jon on that matter as I know what it feels like to feel isolated. The point is that I also understand where both Catelyn and Ned are coming from and how this explains their actions of how they really didn't have a duty to play false mommy/daddy for these isolated boys unless they themselves were up to it.

Moreover, I was criticizing the double standard on how Catelyn is repeatedly criticized by fans for not playing mommy for Jon yet one almost never hears anyone criticize Ned for not playing daddy to Theon. Hell, the majority of fans pretend that Theon should have been unequivocally loyal to Ned's memory because he was so well treated (i.e not thrown in a dungeon) yet no one argues that Jon is wrong to be bitter about Catelyn being distant to him.

[SeanF]

So? Rich pampered kids get screwed up too just take a look at any kid star these days. You can have all the wealth in the world, if someone disrupts your family structure (Cat) it can screw you up too.

Donal Noye's critique about Jon is more about him being smug to the lowborn recruits of the watch than anything else.

Jon is not a pampered rich kid who's neglected by his parents (that fits Tyrion better). But, he's had the same lordly upbringing as the rest of the Stark children, the same education, the same military training. And, Ned, Robb and Arya are all very close to him.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I feel for both Theon(my favorite character) and Jon on that matter as I know what it feels like to feel isolated. The point is that I also understand where both Catelyn and Ned are coming from and how this explains their actions of how they really didn't have a duty to play false mommy/daddy for these isolated boys unless they themselves were up to it.

Moreover, I was criticizing the double standard on how Catelyn is repeatedly criticized by fans for not playing mommy for Jon yet one almost never hears anyone criticize Ned for not playing daddy to Theon. Hell, the majority of fans pretend that Theon should have been unequivocally loyal to Ned's memory because he was so well treated (i.e not thrown in a dungeon) yet no one argues that Jon is wrong to be bitter about Catelyn being distant to him.

Theon was a hostage, who had a real father to whom he was going to return. Jon was not a hostage, and did not have a mother whom he'd ever see again.

[UselessOpinion]

Hell, the majority of fans pretend that Theon should have been unequivocally loyal to Ned's memory because he was so well treated (i.e not thrown in a dungeon) yet no one argues that Jon is wrong to be bitter about Catelyn being distant to him.

He wasn't treated well. That's the point. He was provided for and instructed in martial combat, but Theon himself admits that there was always the looming threat of being beheaded by Ned.

Imagine that a guy killed your brothers, left your father in practical ruin and then decided to take you in as a ward (read: hostage). Despite all of that you grow to respect, and in some regards even love the man and his family. And despite all of that, there was always the looming threat of having your head chopped off by the same man. Ned was cold to Theon, don't kid yourself. He had to be in case he had to lop his head off.

[Minsc]

Theon was a hostage, who had a real father to whom he was going to return. Jon was not a hostage, and did not have a mother whom he'd ever see again.

Ned had a father whom he likely saw a number of times, yet that didn't stop Jon Arryn from acting as a surrogate father to him. Additionally, looking at what the terms of Theon's status of being a hostage where it was likely he wasn't going to be able to return home until his father died and he was meant to take up the lordship of the Iron Islands.

He wasn't treated well. That's the point. He was provided for and instructed in martial combat, but Theon himself admits that there was always the looming threat of being beheaded by Ned.

Imagine that a guy killed your brothers, left your father in practical ruin and then decided to take you in as a ward (read: hostage). Despite all of that you grow to respect, and in some regards even love the man and his family. And despite all of that, there was always the looming threat of having your head chopped off by the same man. Ned was cold to Theon, don't kid yourself. He had to be in case he had to lop his head off.

I know, I am criticizing a double standard on how Cat/Ned respectively treated Jon/Theon and how that is viewed by many fans.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It is certainly interesting to see how this discussion is going. On one extreme side, we have fans who think that Cat is the reincarnation of evil for choosing not to love a child that isn't hers. On the other extreme side, we have fans who think that Jon should consider himself lucky for not being physically abused or murdered by Cat.

What I don't understand is that any criticism/assignment of blame to Catelyn on this topic is taken as her being the reincarnation of evil. That's somewhat understandable because the history here is that some fans of Jon Snow absolutely despise Catelyn because of how she treated their favorite character. But it is also possible to say "I think Catelyn was wrong for the way she treated him" without blowing it out of proportion, and without ignoring all the other ways it in which she was a good person. I personally liked her. She was a loving mother and devoted to her family, but she wasn't a saint and fell short of what you'd hope to see with her treatment of Jon. I think that makes her a good person who didn't measure up in this one area, not a bad person.

That's a middle ground that actually exists.

[Katsa]

Yea that dichotomy really seems to pop out around here. I don't think she's the reincarnation of evil though. I understand her (or try to), but I dislike her for reasons that don't pertain to her relationship with Jon.

Just to be clear, I wasn't referring to you. I think it was on the first few early to middle pages of this thread?

I personally do get the point you are trying to get across. My boyfriend is in a situation somewhat similar to Jon; i.e. has a stepmother who is cold towards him and gives him the impression that he is unwanted. I have a problem with anyone trying to downplay this because, while isn't an abusive act, it hurts. Like crazy. And it still has a huge impact on a growing child.

And yet I don't blame Cat for acting the way she did, either. She was raised with a Westerosi line of thinking, and the concept of raising a bastard in a castle of your trueborns is completely alien to her... what more accepting/loving her husband's bastard born as her trueborn son.

It's a really complex situation lol.

I personally liked her. She was a loving mother and devoted to her family, but she wasn't a saint and fell short of what you'd hope to see with her treatment of Jon. I think that makes her a good person who didn't measure up in this one area, not a bad person.

I do personally agree with this. Cheers! :)

(edited for spelling)

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Ned had a father whom he likely saw a number of times, yet that didn't stop Jon Arryn from acting as a surrogate father to him. Additionally, looking at what the terms of Theon's status of being a hostage where it was likely he wasn't going to be able to return home until his father died and he was meant to take up the lordship of the Iron Islands.

That's because Ned wasn't a hostage, and Theon was. Ned's treatment of Theon was limited for that reason. Catelyn's treatment of Jon wasn't limited by anything except her own anger/resentment at Jon for being the symbol of Ned's infidelity.

[Minsc]

That's because Ned wasn't a hostage, and Theon was. Ned's treatment of Theon was limited for that reason. Catelyn's treatment of Jon wasn't limited by anything except her own anger/resentment at Jon for being the symbol of Ned's infidelity.

So Ned is exempt from Jon Arryn's example because his actions were dictated on punishing an innocent child for his father's actions? Seems like that is a complaint one hears commonly about another character's interactions with an innocent child.

Either both had a responsibility to play parent or neither did in my mind.