[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[Mulled Wino]

in my opinion, the way she treated a child that was born to another mother through no fault of his own was pretty shi tty. Although, I think Ned is just as culpable as Cat for his poor treatment for holding all the info about Jon's birth from her. Had he been honest, Cat might be more understanding.

I have zero problem with the deviation of book Cat and show Cat.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

This. It wasn't just Catelyn not treating him as one of her own. She didn't treat Theon as one of her own either, yet I don't think anyone believes he would have received the same reaciton had he come in to see Bran when Catelyn was there.

Right! She didn't make Ned take his ward with him or get him out of Winterfell.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

*snip*

Rather than get repetitive, I'll just say that I don't think Ned's treatment of Theon was comparable to Catelyn's treatment of Jon, and leave it at that.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

in my opinion, the way she treated a child that was born to another mother through no fault of his own was pretty shi tty. Although, I think Ned is just as culpable as Cat for his poor treatment for holding all the info about Jon's birth from her. Had he been honest, Cat might be more understanding.

I have zero problem with the deviation of book Cat and show Cat.

Or, Cat would have sold him out to Robert in order to make sure that her children we safe. I used to think that she would have kept the secret, however, after really getting into her character, I think not.

[Ser Greguh]

Ned forcibly took Theon from his mother, father, sister, and home to live in a foreign land where everyone was suspicious of him solely for his heritage because Balon messed up. Yet, despite that Ned additionally was cold and distant to Theon to the degree that Theon felt resentment on that issue.

Be real. Theon was willing to fight and to die for the Starks, and took steps (that were ultimately, of course, rejected by Balon) to unite their houses in alliance. It wasn't until after he took Winterfell that he played the "I was a hostage who feared for my life" card. Yes, his situation sucked, but he never had any specific grievance toward his treatment by Ned.

[Gemma]

My biggest problem with Cat's speech in the show is that she talked about how she would beg Ned to legitimize Jon if her prayers were answered.

Cat would never have done that because it would have put her own children's inheritance at risk. As if she ever would have risked Jon inheriting Winterfell over Robb! It's laughable to think she'd even entertain the thought. Cat has always been very protective of her children and their rights and it was clear Jon's presence and part of the reason she could never warm to him was because his existence was a threat to her own children's claim.

We know Jon isn't conniving and had no intention of stealing Winterfell away from his trueborn siblings but the threat existed. One need only look to the Targaryens and their trouble with the Blackfyres (who were legitimized Targaryen bastards) to know things can get dicey in such a situation. No one can predict the future but she was always wary of the possibility.

I honestly don't blame Cat for being distant with Jon. She had no obligation to him. Ned was the one responsible for putting Cat and Jon in a terrible position. Cat tried to talk to Ned about Jon's mother and he shut her down so harshly she claims it was the only time he ever scared her.

Nonetheless, Jon was very well cared for. He had wetnurses/stewards to look after him, was well educated alongside his trueborn siblings, trained with Robb, etc. Cat never prevented him from enjoying these privileges or from having good relationships with her own children. It was just important that he know his status and that he could never inherit.

Ned could have had him fostered elsewhere which might have been easier on Jon (as well as Cat). It had to suck being raised as a Stark knowing that you aren't one. His status as a bastard meant he was the odd one out and even if Cat had been warm to him it wouldn't have changed his status as an outsider. Short of legitimizing him, nothing else would have changed the fact that he was a Snow not a Stark.

[The Wolves]

I saw the scene and it annoyed me a lot. I didn't like the adaption that the show did to Catelyn's character maybe because I don't like a lot of the show's adaptions. I don't like Cat as a character and though Jon is my favorite character I can understand Cat's feelings regarding her husband's child I still hold her resentment towards Jon against her. But I didn't like it for a number of reasons, such as it not being true true to Cat's character

[Minsc]

You didn't answer the questions about how comfortable he felt in Ned's presense compared to how Jon felt in Catelyn's, whether it's reasonable to think Ned would have given a "it should have been you", etc.. Your ducking the comparison.

Seeing how we never see them interact in either of their own POVs that is frankly impossible to answer. The issue that Theon expresses some bitterness does express some displeasure on the issue of their relationship.

Moreover, again there is nothing about Theon's presence that is a personal affront to Ned nor was he particularly forced onto Ned.

[David Selig]

Again, this doesn't explain why Jon is frightened to go visit Bran until the very last day before he leaves. He is frightened of being in the same room as her, to the point where he (correctly) predicts that she will not react positively even to the purely unobjectionable sentiment to say goodbye to Bran before he leaves. This does not bespeak having simply been ignored.

Robb knows it, too, which is why he queries Jon as to Catelyn's treatment of him after Jon visits Bran anyway. Jon lies and says that she was kind. It's hinted that Robb knows Jon is lying, but goes along to keep the peace.

At the time she was snapping at everyone due to grief and spending so long without sleep. And Jon knew she disliked him, so was understandably wary of provoking an outburst.

[Lady Octarina]

My biggest problem with Cat's speech in the show is that she talked about how she would beg Ned to legitimize Jon if her prayers were answered.

:agree:

Still, that was possibly the most touching scene we ever had on GoT, so I can't complain. It also seems to me that they're trying to make her a more relatable character so people will feel her loss more strongly. I don't think this excuses the mess they've made of her arc since season two, but it's a valid way to make us cry at the RW.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

And Jon knew she disliked him....

Isn't that the point?

[Bastard of Boston]

I've been scanning the pages which have emerged since last night (I knew this topic would be a popular one), so forgive me if I'm belaboring a point already made or rehashing. But, what's interesting to me is that I'm seeing a lot of sides being taken -- either Cat is the "bad guy" or the "good guy." I think GRRM would assert that she's neither, as he's said about all his characters. They all have one flaw or another, some more fatal than others.

Yes, it's true that Cat was put in an unfair situation, having to live under the same roof with her husband's bastard. There's no denying it. I would even say that Cat is entitled to her resentment, and yes, I completely subscribe to the notion that she harbored resentment. Maybe "hate" is a strong word, and maybe her venom towards Jon at Bran's bedside was an isolated incident. However, I really don't think it's fair to say she was completely apathetic about him. Apathy would indicate she didn't care whether he lived or died, stayed or went. At the very least, she considered Jon a threat to her own children's birthright. In that sense, Jon was at least competition she needed to be wary of.

Cat told him she'd wished it was him instead of Bran. Even if she didn't mean it, she specifically chose Jon to spit her venom at. I just cannot buy that Cat couldn't care less about Jon Snow.

Jon was a reminder of Ned's supposed infidelity. I forget if this was an actual passage, but I believe she felt snubbed/disrespected by his presence due his origin. The murmurs among the help bothered her. He bothered her by extension -- in my opinion. It might not have been hate, but Cat was not apathetic towards Jon...even if the reasons behind her resentment had more to do with Ned than Jon.

[David Selig]

Isn't that the point?

I thought the point was that Cat mistreated Jon so much that he was afraid to be in the same room with her....

[The Key Is Patchface]

it's VERY simple...they are softening Cat up, making the non book reader care about her, sympathize with her, so when she gets her throat slit they'll care...this is Cat's redemption arc that will end with her death

[Juan_Snow]

How is it reaping what she sowed for a mother to watch what she believes is her last living son be murdered before her eyes just before being killed herself?

OK, I may have been a bit harsh, but other than Jaime is there anyone more to blame for the war starting in the first place other than Cat? There is also no way Tywin would have organized the whole thing in the first place if Jaime was still in a dungeon where he belonged. A ton of the responsibility for the RW lies squarely on Cat's shoulders.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

My biggest problem with Cat's speech in the show is that she talked about how she would beg Ned to legitimize Jon if her prayers were answered. Cat would never have done that because it would have put her own children's inheritance at risk.

But isn't that kind of the point? She didn't do that. To me, Catelyn's speech was not intended to be her speaking logically and rationally. I think it was intended to show her growing emotional distress at what was happening to her own children.

Catelyn is both religious, and emotional. I don't see anything implausible about an emotional, religious Catelyn who prayed for Jon to die suddenly freaking out when it looks like it may come true. What kind of a mother prays for the death of a child? And if the prayer is granted, what might the gods ask for in return? So, she freaks. She does a 180, stays up with him all night, prays for his recovery, makes a seven catcher, and makes emotional promises about how good she's going to be to him if he recovers.

However, when he recovers, her natural animosity takes over and she doesn't follow through with any of that. Particularly the legitimacy part, because that really would affect her blood children. Plus, he hasn't died, so the gods won't be seeking recompense for having granted her prayers that he dies.

But now, Robb may be screwed and has ostracized her, her daughters are missing, and Winterfell has fallen. Bran and Rickon are both at risk, maybe dead. So she freaks again, starts praying and making another seven catcher, and her old promise to the gods regarding Jon comes back to haunt her. So in that state, she says how her broken vow is that cause of all this, etc.. It makes sense from her emotional/religious perspective, even if it makes no logical sense at all.

[David Selig]

OK, I may have been a bit harsh, but other than Jaime is there anyone more to blame for the war starting in the first place other than Cat?

LF, Tywin, Stannis, Ned, Renly, Varys....take your pick.

There is also no way Tywin would have organized the whole thing in the first place if Jaime was still in a dungeon where he belonged

Wrong.

[hazlnut]

This was all lifted from some back story narrative from the books. Or am I mis-remembering.

[The Key Is Patchface]

When she said that everything that has happened wouldn't have happened, or everything would have been ok if she had only raised Jon as her own and let him take the Stark name, I was so freaking confused. How would that have changed what has happened to her family?

Jon is made a Stark, he then never goes to the Wall, he would either have gone to King's Landing with Ned and possibly saved him from his fate, or stayed in Winterfell with Bran and saved it from Theon...Jon going to the wall because he was a bastard had many consequences

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I thought the point was that Cat mistreated Jon so much that he was afraid to be in the same room with her....

Yes Her treatment of him was sufficiently poor that he knew she did not like him, and held animosity towards him. He therefore knew -- as did Robb -- that him going in to say goodbye to Bran in Catelyn's presence would probably cause a problem. Jon's relunctance to enter that room, and Robb's questioning of him afterwards, makes no sense unless her animosity to him is recognized by both Jon and Robb.