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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

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How is this a character assassination? Cat still hates Jon Snow, and she admits that to Talisa.

I'm not seeing this as a major deviation at all.

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How is this a character assassination? Cat still hates Jon Snow, and she admits that to Talisa.

I'm not seeing this as a major deviation at all.

The deviation is that she would ever consider him becoming a Stark and mothering him as if he were her own, but I have no problem with if since it was desperate guilt and she doesn't actually go through with it anyways.

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Didnt bother me at all. Im sure even book Cat would have some struggles all those years she lived with Jon. She's not gonna have a monotone hate for him for 14 or so years (longer in the show). No problem at all with that scene. In fact it shows her humanity. That even though she didnt want him to die, she couldn't bring herself to love him or see him as family. Honestly, the more I think about it, the more I like the addition.

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The only issue I took with the dialog is when she tried to blame everything that had happened on not being able to love Jon. That is an incredibly illogical leap of conclusion.

That's the biggest problem I have with it also. They tend to magnify Catelyn's mistakes on the show. The reader knows a lot of the mistakes Cat makes as she makes them, because the reader has inside information. But in general, she's a prudent person who makes decent decisions with the information she has. She might be the cause in fact of many of the war etc. but her heart was in the right place, and she certainly isn't being punished for resenting the presence of Jon Snow.

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To me it was her just lamenting after losing her other sons that if she had shown an inkling of kindness to Jon in essence she could have had another son to ease the pain of losing Bran and Rickon

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The deviation is that she would ever consider him becoming a Stark and mothering him as if he were her own, but I have no problem with if since it was desperate guilt and she doesn't actually go through with it anyways.

Yes she had that thought for one night of prayer because she felt responsible for a sick infant. As you said it's desperate guilt so she doesn't have to feel guilty about the possible death of this sick child, which completely makes sense for her character. And I'd imagine that it actually became a lot easier to hate Jon as he grew older into a young man.

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I think that this is one of the less intrusive changes that D&D has made on the character of Catelyn. Her letting Jaime go before finding out about Bran and Rikon and her telling Ned Stark not to go to King's Landing were far greater changes in my opinion.

This story, while completely made up, seemed to stay consistent with what we know of her from the books. She is compassionate, worships the seven, and doesn't love Jon Snow.

The only issue I took with the dialog is when she tried to blame everything that had happened on not being able to love Jon. That is an incredibly illogical leap of conclusion.

I don't see all the confusion with the jump from guilt over not keeping a promise to the gods and being convinced that everything that happened was all her fault because of it. Someone who is really religious, who really believes, will think divine punishment is completely reasonable.

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Yes she had that thought for one night of prayer because she felt responsible for a sick infant. As you said it's desperate guilt so she doesn't have to feel guilty about the possible death of this sick child, which completely makes sense for her character. And I'd imagine that it actually became a lot easier to hate Jon as he grew older into a young man.

Not to mention a man who looked and acted more Stark than any of her sons.

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I don't really mind the whole scene. I don't see why is so bad or "character assassination" either.

So, Cat founds out about Jon and she got mad that her noble husband fathered a bastard. Considering that Ned's mainly feature is precisely his honour, I only can imagine how humiliating that should have been for her. Makes sense she wished the kid to "die" or "go away", until the baby got really sick and she felt guilty because she's not Robert Baratheon to feel threatened by a baby and want him dead. When the baby started to become a man, then she resented him again, as she saw him as living proof of Ned's disgrace (who actually looks more like Ned than her own children) and a threat for her older son's right claim to Winterfell: so, she broke her promise.

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I had no problem with the scene whatsoever and even liked it. So Cat wanted to try and love Jon for Ned's sake and knew that it wasn't Jon's fault? And ultimately she couldn't bring herself to do it? Yeah, nothing to see here folks, move along.

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I added the script in the OP.

Can someone please explain why they think Catelyn blames all of the horrors that came to her family on not taking care of Jon Snow? She thinks it's karma...or what? I don't understand that. I've bolded the parts that I can't ever imagine Cat saying/thinking:

"I prayed for my son Bran to survive his fall. Many years before that, one of the boys came down with the pox. Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness. Listened to his ragged little breathes. His coughing, his whimpering. [Which boy?] Jon Snow. When my husband brought that baby home from the war I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring up at me. So I prayed to the gods, take him away. Make him die. He got the pox. And I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know. So I pray to all seven gods, let the boy live. Let him live, and I'lll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it. To make him one of us.

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I added the script in the OP.

Can someone please explain why they think Catelyn blames all of the horrors that came to her family on not taking care of Jon Snow? She thinks it's karma...or what? I don't understand that. I've bolded the parts that I can't ever imagine Cat saying/thinking:

Not actually "karma" but the gods punishing her for breaking her promise to love the kid and now, they're punishing her by taking her kids away.

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I added the script in the OP.

Can someone please explain why they think Catelyn blames all of the horrors that came to her family on not taking care of Jon Snow? She thinks it's karma...or what? I don't understand that. I've bolded the parts that I can't ever imagine Cat saying/thinking:

"I prayed for my son Bran to survive his fall. Many years before that, one of the boys came down with the pox. Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness. Listened to his ragged little breathes. His coughing, his whimpering. [Which boy?] Jon Snow. When my husband brought that baby home from the war I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring up at me. So I prayed to the gods, take him away. Make him die. He got the pox. And I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know. So I pray to all seven gods, let the boy live. Let him live, and I'lll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it. To make him one of us.

Didn't she say later that she didn't keep her promise to the gods? But yeah, I don't get what not loving Jon has to do with the situation the Starks are in now.

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You have to remember too, that Cat just lost her husband, her home, her father, and has no idea where her daughters and youngest sons are. She's a mess and it's important to show that. So if her speech didn't make 100% crystal clear sense, that's ok, because nothing any of us said probably would have either.,

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I agree with the OP that this may have been another scene that is revealing things to come that we just don't know about yet. I think us book readers are going to have to get used to the idea that it will be the show spoiling the books

I understand the show operates in its own universe, but I don't imagine the major storylines to be drastically changed.

hallelujah.. glad someone understands... live with the changes and know that the main story lines will still end the same its the journey that HBO may tweak... great scene BTW and definitely a foreshadow for the future.

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You have to remember too, that Cat just lost her husband, her home, her father, and has no idea where her daughters and youngest sons are. She's a mess and it's important to show that. So if her speech didn't make 100% crystal clear sense, that's ok, because nothing any of us said probably would have either.,

Actually, it does make sense she's saying all that after she has lost all of her kids and husband: she believes is because she failed accepting Jon as a Stark and a son of hers, as she promised, the Gods are taking her family away. As far as she knows, the only son she got left is Robb and if he dies, the only Stark alive would be Jon. It makes sense the Gods would kill all the Stark kids except the bastard she couldn't love.

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I added the script in the OP.

Can someone please explain why they think Catelyn blames all of the horrors that came to her family on not taking care of Jon Snow? She thinks it's karma...or what? I don't understand that. I've bolded the parts that I can't ever imagine Cat saying/thinking:

"I prayed for my son Bran to survive his fall. Many years before that, one of the boys came down with the pox. Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness. Listened to his ragged little breathes. His coughing, his whimpering. [Which boy?] Jon Snow. When my husband brought that baby home from the war I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring up at me. So I prayed to the gods, take him away. Make him die. He got the pox. And I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know. So I pray to all seven gods, let the boy live. Let him live, and I'lll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it. To make him one of us.

Ok I was feeling a lot better about it and then this just reminded me why I didn't like it. Damn.

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That bit at the end where she alluded to her not caring for Jon being the reason for the peril her family was in now was a bit confusing.

But other than that, I had no problem with this scene at all. She still hates Jon, she still claims she always did. She just panicked and felt immensely guilty when she thought she was responsible for Jon's impending death. She even says herself, she didn't keep her promise, she still hated him.

If this is the biggest deviation we get from the books all series, I'll be thrilled with that.

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I think that this is one of the less intrusive changes that D&D has made on the character of Catelyn. Her letting Jaime go before finding out about Bran and Rikon and her telling Ned Stark not to go to King's Landing were far greater changes in my opinion.

This story, while completely made up, seemed to stay consistent with what we know of her from the books. She is compassionate, worships the seven, and doesn't love Jon Snow.

The only issue I took with the dialog is when she tried to blame everything that had happened on not being able to love Jon. That is an incredibly illogical leap of conclusion.

I agree. The scene did not bother me at all, except for Catelyn feeling guilt about her arrogance. That seems out of character for her.

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