[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[David Selig]

Isn't the prejudice against bastards (that they are treacherous and all that) part of the doctrine of the Faith of the Seven? I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere in the books though I might be misremembering...Anyway, if I am right, giving the bastard kid the cold shoulder is completely acceptable according to the faith. Or maybe I am totally misremembering, wouldn't be the first time...

I think you'll probably find some disagreement with that. Ned and Cat at least knew each other sufficiently that they were married and conceived a child together before Ned when off to war I think that alone is going to create the basis for those feelings.

I guess it's possible TV Cat become really obsessed with Ned really quickly (wasn't it mentioned somewhere he left her on the next day after the wedding), but still, this makes her look really silly and irrational and plain unlikeable. Especially since she's supposed to be quite a bit older than in the books and the marriage must've happened when she was around 25. That totally irrational passion just doesn't fit her character as presented.

I didn't say what she did was right or fair to Jon, just that the action fit in with her main motivation which has always been to protect her family. The point I was trying to make wasn't about whether Cat treated Jon was right or wrong, but why what she said in Sunday's episode didn't go against her character in the book.

What I was saying was the point of the speech (IMO) wasn less about Cat's feelings toward Jon and more about her own guilt over her own shortcomings as a mother and as a Tully. She was supposed to protect her children (her trueborn children) above all others, and Jon was a threat to that. She prayed for him to die, but when she was faced with the monstrosity of what that meant, she got scared and backed out. To truly forever protect her sons from any potential threat to their claim, she should have let Jon die. Instead, she had a moment of weakness (of vanity) because she didn't want to be that monster who killed a child, and she prayed for him to live.

But that's not how the speech went. It's plainly explained the reason Cat prayed for Jon's death wasn't to protect her family, but because she was jealous of his mother. I know that makes very little sense, but that's how it is.

"I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know."

[JediShywalker]

But that's not how the speech went. It's plainly explained the reason Cat prayed for Jon's death wasn't to protect her family, but because she was jealous of his mother. I know that makes very little sense, but that's how it is.

Ugh, I guess I was trying to repress that. I just really want to find a justification for what was a really bizarre scene...

[AliKat]

I know this scene has had a lot of people up in arms. I was mainly confused by it. Then I realized, Catelyn's totally depressed. She has nothing right now. And often when everything is going wrong, you look for reasons 'why is this happening?' Talisa asked her if she had ever made that scary craft thing before and she remembered she had made one for Jon. That's what brought the incident to mind. And since she's depressed she was just like 'that's probably why everything bad is happening to my family. Because I broke my word to the Seven'. When Robb told her about her father, she made a comment about wearing manicles to his funeral. She's just broken right now and everything reminds her of something else horrible going on.

I'm curious whether the non-book readers who only watched the show, felt more sympathy for her or less. Because I'm not sure if it was meant to make her look better or worse. One thing I noticed is that when Talisa approached her and offered her help, she gave her the evil death glare she gave Jon in episode 1. So in my mind, Lady Stark is not even attempting to be civil to Talisa either where in the books she was kind to Jeyne. I think this shows that Catelyn - right now - is so depressed, she doesn't know what to do with herself to make anything better. She's not even attempting to make things better with Robb, the only child with her, by being kind to his new wife. She's just hopeless right now and I don't think anything she really says out of that hopelessness is a character trait. Its just depression and morbid thoughts.

[1234567]

Ouch ouch ouch. Just watched that scene and it was just painful. They really have butchered Cat's character.

[teemo]

the "all because I was jealous of his mother" line sounds very...modern or something. doesn't really strike me as even a mindset women in westeros would have regarding the mother of their husband's bastard.

[Prince of the North]

Yes, and I hope some more emphasis is put on the fact that in a feudal system, such as that of ASoIaF, bastards among the nobility are very, very dangerous. As we saw in the books, a large part of Cat's dislike/distrust/distance/coldness toward Jon was not necessarily personal at all. As Cat tells Robb when they are talking about Robb legitimizing Jon and making him his heir - she says that they may not have to worry about Jon because he's a great guy or whatever but what about his children or grandchildren? She's a noblewoman in a feudal society and as such she has to be concerned with her own children's status, position, etc. Jon, just by his very existence, represents a very real threat to all of that.

I hope we get a pretty faithful rendition of that conversation between Robb and Cat about his considering making Jon his heir.

[Bastard of Boston]

I don't understand why people are so willing to concede that "It should've been you" was an isolated incident brought about by extreme stress, yet they're not willing to attribute the same premise for this scene. The point being that Cat is prone to being irrational when she's under a great amount of stress. Essentially, she says crazy shit when shit hits the fan.

[Minsc]

I don't understand why people are so willing to concede that "It should've been you" was an isolated incident brought about by extreme stress, yet they're not willing to attribute the same premise for this scene. The point being that Cat is prone to being irrational when she's under a great amount of stress. Essentially, she says crazy shit when shit hits the fan.

The thing is there was no crazy stress/grief that led her to pray for Jon's death that is talked about in this scene.

[David Selig]

Yes, and I hope some more emphasis is put on the fact that in a feudal system, such as that of ASoIaF, bastards among the nobility are very, very dangerous. As we saw in the books, a large part of Cat's dislike/distrust/distance/coldness toward Jon was not necessarily personal at all. As Cat tells Robb when they are talking about Robb legitimizing Jon and making him his heir - she says that they may not have to worry about Jon because he's a great guy or whatever but what about his children or grandchildren? She's a noblewoman in a feudal society and as such she has to be concerned with her own children's status, position, etc. Jon, just by his very existence, represents a very real threat to all of that.

I hope we get a pretty faithful rendition of that conversation between Robb and Cat about his considering making Jon his heir.

I am almost sure they'd turn this scene around and now Cat will ask Robb to make Jon his heir and legitimise him. It'd make sense in the show after the scene in this episode. Cat trying to make up for the past mistakes, etc, etc...

[jugdesh258]

I am almost sure they'd turn this scene around and now Cat will ask Robb to make Jon his heir and legitimise him. It'd make sense in the show after the scene in this episode. Cat trying to make up for the past mistakes, etc, etc...

Can't see it since the context of Jon being legitimized really only comes up when Rob is gone. We still entertain the idea that Robb has an heir in the present book storyline. That can happen in the show.... and it seems that Bran and Ricken will remain missing.

In seems obvious that Cats feeling for Jon seem out of her character the whole time so it is leading to something redeeming. If it is not the suggestion that Cat saves Jon as mentioned..... I think it is likely Jon has to put Cat down y'know out of kindness because of the monster she has become so her soul is grateful to him and all....blah. Either Jon or Bran will have to do this in my opinion

[Jon Icefyre]

I think what some ppl have to understand is that based on the values and customs of the Westeros society Cat had every right to not want Jon around and really shouldn't have had to put up with that. But(and this is a big but) there's an underlining issue that's much deeper for Cat than just simply the customs of Westeros:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him." Cat GOT chapter 6

Yes Cat resents Jon because he's a bastard at Winterfell that she sees as a possible threat to her children's inheritance. But the real issue for her is why he's there, meaning in Cat's opinion the fact that Ned refused to send Jon away must have meant that he loved Jon's mother immensely. Which is something that Cat obviously felt extremely jealous about. She uses the customs and history of Westeros along with her children as frontal justifications for her resentment of Jon. But the true main reason for her resentment is the jealousy she has based on her own preconception of how much Ned must have loved Jon's mother, which she is reminded of everytime she sees Jon who looks more like Ned than any of her children.

Which means her resentment has a lot more to do with Ned than it does Jon, yet she seems to focus all of her resentment towards Jon instead of having the courage to express her anger/feelings towards the real person responsible for her resentment which is Ned. Which some ppl understandably see as cowardly behavior from a woman who had proven time and time again in the series that she was not afraid to voice her opinion against powerful men. I mean I understand Ned scared her when she asked about Ashara when she first got to Winterfell but she didn't really know Ned very well or what he was capable of at that point in time. But after 14 years of marriage she had to have known Ned was not the type to use cruelty towards a woman and certainly not his own wife so what was she so afraid of? It's not like after 14 years of marriage with the guy she thought Ned was actually gonna strike her down or something, it just seems kind of cowardly to me. Which is why I think the show so far and this scene in 3x2 specifically is doing a much better job of showing the true motive behind Cat's resentment towards Jon, which is her misplaced jealousy of Ned's love for Jon's mother.

[Bastard of Boston]

The thing is there was no crazy stress/grief that led her to pray for Jon's death that is talked about in this scene.

Well, now we're talking about a different facet of the scene. I never know which line in her speech we're dissecting. I was still commenting on the notion that Cat should/shouldn't feel responsible for Jon, and whether the idea is as irrational as anything else she's said while under stress.

Who really knows the scenario in which Cat would pray for Jon to die? We're not privy to it and we can't begin to write our own versions of what brought her prayer about. We know at one point she wished him to die because we have it in our texts. Also, we know, at one point in the show's timeline, Cat had prayed that the baby would die. There needs to come a point where you have to wonder if something -- a line -- is abstract enough to be open to large amounts of interpretation, thus making it not so completely black/white and detrimental to anything.

I guess my point is that the speech could be explained away in any number of scenarios. As such, it's not necessarily something that makes/breaks Cat, or IMO, so totally distances herself from her book counterpart.

[JMJ]

I think what some ppl have to understand is that based on the values and customs of the Westeros society Cat had every right to not want Jon around and really shouldn't have had to put up with that. But(and this is a big but) there's an underlining issue that's much deeper for Cat than just simply the customs of Westeros:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him." Cat GOT chapter 6

Yes Cat resents Jon because he's a bastard at Winterfell that she sees as a possible threat to her children's inheritance. But the real issue for her is why he's there, meaning in Cat's opinion the fact that Ned refused to send Jon away must have meant that he loved Jon's mother immensely. Which is something that Cat obviously felt extremely jealous about. She uses the customs and history of Westeros along with her children as frontal justifications for her resentment of Jon. But the true main reason for her resentment is the jealousy she has based on her own preconception of how much Ned must have loved Jon's mother, which she is reminded of everytime she sees Jon who looks more like Ned than any of her children.

Which means her resentment has a lot more to do with Ned than it does Jon, yet she seems to focus all of her resentment towards Jon instead of having the courage to express her anger/feelings towards the real person responsible for her resentment which is Ned. Which some ppl understandably see as cowardly behavior from a woman who had proven time and time again in the series that she was not afraid to voice her opinion against powerful men. I mean I understand Ned scared her when she asked about Ashara when she first got to Winterfell but she didn't really know Ned very well or what he was capable of at that point in time. But after 14 years of marriage she had to have known Ned was not the type to use cruelty towards a woman and certainly not his own wife so what was she so afraid of? It's not like after 14 years of marriage with the guy she thought Ned was actually gonna strike her down or something, it just seems kind of cowardly to me. Which is why I think the show so far and this scene in 3x2 specifically is doing a much better job of showing the true motive behind Cat's resentment towards Jon, which is her misplaced jealousy of Ned's love for Jon's mother.

Yes, this. One thing that seems to have been forgotten (other than your post) is that a lot of Cat's feelings and thoughts are underneath directed at Ned. Because at first Westeros customs and Cat's sense of duty probably preclude her from directly confronting Ned, she transfers her anger and negative vibes from Ned to Jon. Later on, by the time of this scene, Ned's now dead, so she still cannot directly deal with her feelings towards Ned for (what she assumes is) his love for another woman.

[SerMixalot]

I think what some ppl have to understand is that based on the values and customs of the Westeros society Cat had every right to not want Jon around and really shouldn't have had to put up with that. But(and this is a big but) there's an underlining issue that's much deeper for Cat than just simply the customs of Westeros:

"Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him." Cat GOT chapter 6

Yes Cat resents Jon because he's a bastard at Winterfell that she sees as a possible threat to her children's inheritance. But the real issue for her is why he's there, meaning in Cat's opinion the fact that Ned refused to send Jon away must have meant that he loved Jon's mother immensely. Which is something that Cat obviously felt extremely jealous about. She uses the customs and history of Westeros along with her children as frontal justifications for her resentment of Jon. But the true main reason for her resentment is the jealousy she has based on her own preconception of how much Ned must have loved Jon's mother, which she is reminded of everytime she sees Jon who looks more like Ned than any of her children.

Which means her resentment has a lot more to do with Ned than it does Jon, yet she seems to focus all of her resentment towards Jon instead of having the courage to express her anger/feelings towards the real person responsible for her resentment which is Ned. Which some ppl understandably see as cowardly behavior from a woman who had proven time and time again in the series that she was not afraid to voice her opinion against powerful men. I mean I understand Ned scared her when she asked about Ashara when she first got to Winterfell but she didn't really know Ned very well or what he was capable of at that point in time. But after 14 years of marriage she had to have known Ned was not the type to use cruelty towards a woman and certainly not his own wife so what was she so afraid of? It's not like after 14 years of marriage with the guy she thought Ned was actually gonna strike her down or something, it just seems kind of cowardly to me. Which is why I think the show so far and this scene in 3x2 specifically is doing a much better job of showing the true motive behind Cat's resentment towards Jon, which is her misplaced jealousy of Ned's love for Jon's mother.

However, no matter how much she asked or stood up to her husband that is not going to loosen Ned's lips.

[Jon Icefyre]

However, no matter how much she asked or stood up to her husband that is not going to loosen Ned's lips.

First of all she didn't know that because she only approached the subject once, and second of all regardless of if Ned talks to her about it or not it still doesn't change the fact that it's just plain cowardly/wrong to take her resentment/anger at Ned and aim it all towards Jon who had no say in the matter whatsoever, and there's just really no denying that anyway you look at it..

[jotabe1789]

Which means her resentment has a lot more to do with Ned than it does Jon, yet she seems to focus all of her resentment towards Jon instead of having the courage to express her anger/feelings towards the real person responsible for her resentment which is Ned. Which some ppl understandably see as cowardly behavior from a woman who had proven time and time again in the series that she was not afraid to voice her opinion against powerful men. I mean I understand Ned scared her when she asked about Ashara when she first got to Winterfell but she didn't really know Ned very well or what he was capable of at that point in time. But after 14 years of marriage she had to have known Ned was not the type to use cruelty towards a woman and certainly not his own wife so what was she so afraid of?

I agree with your post. But i don't think it was lack of courage, or some bodily fear what made her deflect her resentment of Ned towards Jon. I think it was the fact that she had grown to love Ned. So, on one hand, she loves him, on the other she resents him for not sending Jon away, and that resentment is even bigger because she loves Ned. But loving Ned is exactly what prevents her from directing her resentment to Ned. So it goes to the immediately next person in the resentment "succession line", Jon. With the added benefit that society is expecting her to resent him and will give her slack for that.

[Jon Icefyre]

I agree with your post. But i don't think it was lack of courage, or some bodily fear what made her deflect her resentment of Ned towards Jon. I think it was the fact that she had grown to love Ned. So, on one hand, she loves him, on the other she resents him for not sending Jon away, and that resentment is even bigger because she loves Ned. But loving Ned is exactly what prevents her from directing her resentment to Ned. So it goes to the immediately next person in the resentment "succession line", Jon. With the added benefit that society is expecting her to resent him and will give her slack for that.

Oh I agree that her love for Ned was definitely a factor but that doesn't make the way she handled things any more right or wrong. The simple fact of it is she took her anger and resentment of Ned and put it all on Jon regardless of her reasons that just isn't right. Also if anything I think her growing love of Ned probably intensified her jealousy. I mean think about it, the more she loved Ned the more she couldn't stand the fact that Ned "Must have fiercly loved Jon's mother". And everytime she saw Jon she was reminded that the man she was madly in love with(Ned) had immensely loved Jon's mother to the point of refusing to send him away from Winterfell leading Cat to believe Jon's mother was still in Ned's memory/heart, which is something that Cat admits obviously pissed her off. So again she's taking the anger she had for her husband and is aiming that as resentment towards Jon who had no control over the situation. I'm sorry but anyway you spin it, it's still just plain wrong to do.

[jotabe1789]

So again she's taking the anger she had for her husband and is aiming that as resentment towards Jon who had no control over the situation. I'm sorry but anyway you spin it, it's still just plain wrong to do.

Oh, i quite agree, it's wrong of Cat to take it out on Jon. What i mean is that it's also a very human thing to do. There is no fear, and no inherent meanness or maliciousness, just very complicated feelings that make us do things... we regret deeply, which is why this scene was powerful, for me.

She kept redirecting her resentment to Jon, but at some level she could feel it was wrong too, and those negative feelings spiral out of control to the point that she wishes the child dies. Not really wishing him bodily harm, just wishing him away. And then she gets her wish.

It's hard not to empatize with her guilt.

[Jon Icefyre]

Oh, i quite agree, it's wrong of Cat to take it out on Jon. What i mean is that it's also a very human thing to do. There is no fear, and no inherent meanness or maliciousness, just very complicated feelings that make us do things... we regret deeply, which is why this scene was powerful, for me.

She kept redirecting her resentment to Jon, but at some level she could feel it was wrong too, and those negative feelings spiral out of control to the point that she wishes the child dies. Not really wishing him bodily harm, just wishing him away. And then she gets her wish.

It's hard not to empatize with her guilt.

Oh trust me my friend I agree with you. I said in one of my earlier post on this thread that I absolutely loved the scene and thought it was extremely powerful. I was just making a point that a lot of ppl are using the Westeros customs and society rules as Cat's ultimate justification for her actions as if it's some impenetrable shield of reasoning that can't be argued with and if this was truly all there was to her situation then I would agree with it but it's not, and it's pretty clear that Cat's resentment of Jon goes a lot deeper than that and is truly about the jealousy she feels of Ned loving another woman aka Jon's mother. Once again I think the TV series is doing a much better job than the books did at exploring/showing the true motive of her resentment and the fact that she acknowledges and accepts that it was wrong, to me makes the scene that much better and allows Cat to be seen in a sympathetic light to the fans in a way the book never really did in terms of her relationship with Jon. Please don't get me wrong I'm a huge Cat supporter, but I'm not gonna pretend like she did nothing wrong in the way she handled her situation with Jon because it's clear she did.

[teemo]

Robb hasn't talked about legitimizing Jon to Cat yet in the show, right?