[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

[Khal Porno]

Robb hasn't talked about legitimizing Jon to Cat yet in the show, right?

Nope! It will be interesting to see if they do the same fake-out in the books where they cut away right when Robb says "OK guys, I got something to tells ya!" and we have to just guess what that is.

[1234567]

In terms of non- book readers' reactions, my other half hasn't read the books and that scene made him dislike Cat more. I don't know how others have viewed it though!

[David Selig]

In terms of non- book readers' reactions, my other half hasn't read the books and that scene made him dislike Cat more. I don't know how others have viewed it though!

That's shocking. Who'd have thought that a character admitting to praying for a baby's death because she was jealous of his (probably dead already) mum would make people dislike the character more...

[Khal Porno]

That's shocking. Who'd have thought that a character admitting to praying for a baby's death because she was jealous of his (probably dead already) mum would make people dislike the character more...

Maybe they weren't trying to make her more sympathetic, like you keep saying...

[1234567]

That's shocking. Who'd have thought that a character admitting to praying for a baby's death because she was jealous of his (probably dead already) mum would make people dislike the character more...

I know, go figure? Eh.

I actually can't think how they thought that scene could have been interpreted well.

[1234567]

Maybe they weren't trying to make her more sympathetic, like you keep saying...

Only it made her less sympathetic, not more.

[David Selig]

Maybe they weren't trying to make her more sympathetic, like you keep saying...

I never said that. In fact I questioned this claim like 5 times already in this thread....

[TalalOfDorne]

Sometimes I think that this scene will only make people hate Catelyn more when they read the books, because she never fealt guilty about wishing for him to die. Even though this obviously never happens in the books, and she rightfully doesnt have to feel guilty about it.

[SeanF]

Although it relates to Season 2, it still affects how viewers see Catelyn. Her decision to free Jaime was made to seem very capricious, by omitting the dialogue between the two of them, and by having her free him immediately after he'd carried out two murders. At one point, I really did think that (TV Series) Robb was going to order his mother's execution!

[Sun]

Although it relates to Season 2, it still affects how viewers see Catelyn. Her decision to free Jaime was made to seem very capricious, by omitting the dialogue between the two of them, and by having her free him immediately after he'd carried out two murders. At one point, I really did think that (TV Series) Robb was going to order his mother's execution!

Exactly. That's the main reason my group hates Cat, they still see it as an act of utter stupidity and selfishness. As for the reaction to the scene, I and my non-reader cousin both reached for the tissues while watching... with a bit of a sad giggle.

[Khal Porno]

I know, go figure? Eh.

I actually can't think how they thought that scene could have been interpreted well.

I thought it was fantastic, and many others thought so as well.

But you know, some people don't like italian food and some people can't get enough spaghetti.

[SeanF]

I thought it was fantastic, and many others thought so as well.

But you know, some people don't like italian food and some people can't get enough spaghetti.

Does it make Catelyn more sympathetic, to you and your friends, or less sympathetic?

[Khal Porno]

Does it make Catelyn more sympathetic, to you and your friends, or less sympathetic?

It didn't make her any more or less sympathetic to me personally.

EDIT: What this scene said to me was that Catelyn is a human being with conflicting emotions like everyone else, not that she deserves more or less sympathy.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

It didn't make her any more or less sympathetic to me personally.

EDIT: What this scene said to me was that Catelyn is a human being with conflicting emotions like everyone else, not that she deserves more or less sympathy.

Yep exactly... In the book you get that sense because it is her PoV you are hearing. I really liked the scene, although there was no danger of me accidentally liking her or feeling sorry for her. Book Cat lost me with the release of Ser Jaime.

There will be those who will be less sympathetic to her and that is being used as a mechanism for setting up an emotional roller-coaster for the events that will come later this series.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

That's shocking. Who'd have thought that a character admitting to praying for a baby's death because she was jealous of his (probably dead already) mum would make people dislike the character more...

But you have to factor into that non-reader calculus that they omitted the "it should have been you" line from the books. That was a very big deal for a lot of readers who have essentially hated her character because of the "it should have been you" line. By omitting that line, the show made Catelyn a more sympathetic, less vindictive character than in the books. So it's hardly a surprise that when non-readers see a side of Catelyn they never saw before, they may see her less sympathetically than they did before.

Really, what the show did was show that side of Catelyn a bit differently, and later in the narrative. That may have been a deliberate decision because even Martin was surprised by the vitriol directed at Catelyn because of that. I'm guessing the showrunners skippe that line because they didn't want to scar Catelyn's character in the mind of viewers, who wouldn't have the benefit of Martin's later clarification that this was a unique event. They'd just hate her for it, and that wasn't Martin's intent in presenting the character.

So, they wait until the 3rd season to show the depth of animosity she had towards Jon at times, but balance that past cruelty by showing that she knows it was wrong and regrets it.

How each of us readers interprets that compared to the books is likely to be vary as much as the individual reactions we all had to book Catelyn. Some of us really liked her (I'm one of those), and some really, really hated her. Given the variance in reactions to book Cat, it's natural that there is disagreement over whether HBO Cat is generally consistent with book Cat. And I don't think there is a right or wrong answer to that.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

It didn't make her any more or less sympathetic to me personally.

EDIT: What this scene said to me was that Catelyn is a human being with conflicting emotions like everyone else, not that she deserves more or less sympathy.

Same for me as well. I don't really think is would make sense for non-readers to see her more sympathetically, because prior to that scene, the negative aspects of her relationship with Jon were underplayed from the books. This scene gave more of a sense that she really was not nice to him at all.

For me personally, I think it pretty much balances with the book. Her one-time comment to Jon was horrible, though it was only once, and we are told she did feel a pang of guilt later regarding Jon. Praying for his death is terrible as well, but then, that is balanced by her then regretting it and staying up all night with him, and by the revelation that she regrets it so strongly now. I personally can't manage a grudge/hatred for someone for wishing something nasty upon someone else 13 years ago, when they deeply regretted that action later, any more than I could manage a grudge for a cruel word a distraught mother says at her child's deathbed.

Comes out in pretty much the same place to me, and I still like her as a very three-dimensional, human character.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

Isn't the prejudice against bastards (that they are treacherous and all that) part of the doctrine of the Faith of the Seven? I seem to recall it being mentioned somewhere in the books though I might be misremembering...Anyway, if I am right, giving the bastard kid the cold shoulder is completely acceptable according to the faith. Or maybe I am totally misremembering, wouldn't be the first time...

I don't think so, though I suppose it is possible. If it were, then there would have been a negative reaction from religious types to Bolton keeping the bastard, or to Robert acknowleding Edric Storm. And, we'd likely have heard seen something from Cat about how her treatment of Jon is proper according to the gods, etc..

I guess it's possible TV Cat become really obsessed with Ned really quickly (wasn't it mentioned somewhere he left her on the next day after the wedding), but still, this makes her look really silly and irrational and plain unlikeable.

Well,, maybe it makes her look silly and irrational to you, but I think our reactions to that are pretty idiosyncratic as well. And though Cat is older on the show, so is Ned, and there's no reason for an audience to infer that both weren't young when they were married. A wife being jealous of another woman her husband had a child with doesn't seem like an unusual reaction in the least to me. Also, Catelyn's remark about jealousy seems to have covered the period of her whole marriage, long after she'd gotten to know Ned really well. But you could tell that always was between them, and it would have hurt given Ned's refusal to ever say who she was. I mean, why wouldn't he, unless he still harbored some secret feelings for her or her memory. I could see a lot of women, and men for that matter, feeling jealousy about a past lover whom the cheating spouse refuses to even identify or discuss.

In the books, Catelyn apparently was asking around Winterfell about who the woman was with whom Ned cheated. I'd suggest that the fact that she was asking around about her identity is itself indicative of a certain level of jealousy. When she found out that it was Ashara Dayne, who was renowned throughout Westeros for her great beauty, I think a suggestion of jealousy is right in the wheelhouse of normal behavior.

[jotabe1789]

It didn't make her any more or less sympathetic to me personally.

EDIT: What this scene said to me was that Catelyn is a human being with conflicting emotions like everyone else, not that she deserves more or less sympathy.

Well, that's what i understand that "making her more sympathetic" means. Because they show her deeper conflicting emotions one can connect with her emotional state easier. But not necesarily thinking that she deserves more sympathy, or that her actions are morally better.

It's like saying that The Downfall made Hitler more sympathetic, but didn't earn more sympathy for him :ack:

[David Selig]

In the books, Catelyn apparently was asking around Winterfell about who the woman was with whom Ned cheated. I'd suggest that the fact that she was asking around about her identity is itself indicative of a certain level of jealousy. When she found out that it was Ashara Dayne, who was renowned throughout Westeros for her great beauty, I think a suggestion of jealousy is right in the wheelhouse of normal behavior.

Sure, a certain level of jealousy is completely normal. But the extreme level of jealousy required for the "pray for a baby's death out of jealousy towards his dead mother" act is hard to believe in those circumstances, at least IMO.

I don't think so, though I suppose it is possible. If it were, then there would have been a negative reaction from religious types to Bolton keeping the bastard, or to Robert acknowleding Edric Storm. And, we'd likely have heard seen something from Cat about how her treatment of Jon is proper according to the gods, etc..

I found the quote I was thinking of. It's from The Sworn Sword, so I'll put it in spoiler tags just in case, though it isn't really relevant for its plot.

“The old High Septon told my father that king’s laws are one thing, and the laws of the gods another,” the boy said stubbornly. “Trueborn children are made in a marriage bed and blessed by the Father and the Mother, but bastards are born of lust and weakness, he said. King Aegon decreed that his bastards were not bastards, but he could not change their nature. The High Septon said all bastards are born to betrayal . . . Daemon Blackfyre, Bittersteel, even Bloodraven. Lord Rivers was more cunning than the other two, he said, but in the end he would prove himself a traitor, too. The High Septon counseled my father never to put any trust in him, nor in any other bastards, great or small.”

[Jojosh]

It made Cat really sympathetic because look how down she is. Hating Jon snow and putting it in the context of how its led her here in the show is brilliant