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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

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I'm kind of late to this party but I can't go along with those that think this scene killed Cat's character. TV Cat is just a fundamentally different character from the books, she has been from the start. My reading of Cat has always been as a sort of rational Cersei in that she knows she could be a good "Lord" and is somewhat frustrated by the limitations that Westerosi society places on women. But where Cersei rails against that Catelyn accepts it as the way of things and tries to make her way in the world through accepted methods and so we see how she influences Ned quietly, and I'm assuming, wisely, since Ned readily accepts Cat's advice. We later see her doing the same with Robb and it's also apparent that the other Northern Lords accept Cat as an authority figure and don't dismiss her input. Now, that's only part of her character (as well as the standard mother, daughter, wife roles) but it's arguably the most interesting. Unfortunately, the show has discarded almost all of that and the only scene that I can remembering which TV Cat acted in accordance with Book Cat is in that first meeting with Renly when she administers a dressing down first to the whole Baratheon-Tyrell entourage then to Renly himself.

This new "Jon Snow with the pox" scene doesn't really damage Cat, it is in fact quite in-keeping with how the show has portrayed the character so far. By turns it softens Cat and hardens her for the viewer and ultimately, it papers over the crack made by the omission of the "it should have been you" line from the first season.

I suppose what I'm saying, in short, is that this new scene did not remove a layer of complexity from Cat, she has just never been a particularly complex character in the show and it's late in the game to expect anything different now. I do obviously miss Book Cat but I've accepted from pretty early on that GoT is an adaptation with all that implies. Some characters were always going to suffer. On the positive side, Michelle Fairley is doing a great job with the material she has been given.

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The scene was stupid because Jon is a Targaryen and even discussing the possibility of having his name changed to Stark is ludicrous. Before anyone says anything about Robb's Will, it's only purpose is to add to the reveal that Jon is Rhagaer's son when Jon denies the will and his legitimacy.

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So, what did you think of this scene? I know most people hated it - but what is the point of it? Is it to to really emphasize that connection Jon still has to the Starks and that he can be legitimized at one point? I personally didn't like the change because it didn't feel like something that Cat would ever think, but I'm curious what others think...

EDIT: here is the whole dialogue:

"I prayed for my son Bran to survive his fall. Many years before that, one of the boys came down with the pox. Maester Luwin said if he made it through the night, he'd live, it would be a very long night. So I sat with him all through the darkness. Listened to his ragged little breathes. His coughing, his whimpering.

[Which boy?]

Jon Snow. When my husband brought that baby home from the war I couldn't bear to look at him. I didn't want to see those brown stranger's eyes staring up at me. So I prayed to the gods, take him away. Make him die. He got the pox. And I knew I was the worst woman who ever lived. A murderer. I'd condemned this poor, innocent child to a to a horrible death all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn't even know. So I pray to all seven gods, let the boy live. Let him live, and I'lll love him. I'll be a mother to him. I'll beg my husband to give him a true name, to call him Stark and be done with it. To make him one of us.

[And he lived?]

And he lived. And I couldn't keep my promise. And everything that's happened since then, all this horror that's come to my family, it's all because I couldn't love a motherless child."

EDIT: i'm quoting Francis Buck from another thread, because I think it's interesting:

Catelyn's story about Jon was...weird. It doesn't bother me, necessarily but it was definitely a strange addition. It's one of those instances (like Dany's vision of the Iron Throne destroyed and covered in snow) where I feel like the showrunners know important things about the end of the series, and thus are purposely foreshadowing events that the book readers could have no inkling to. I really don't think they just make up random shit like that for the sake of it (though that's how many book readers seem to feel).

Thats how I took that moment as a foreshadowing things to come like maybe Lady Stoneheart will want Jon as her champion and that Jon may finally get the love and recognition he always wanted from Lady Stoneheart he never got from Cat

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What the fuck have they done with Cat.

That's all I can manage right now. I'll try again later.

I know right, I hated that too. Catelyn is a lovely mother, but a real bitch to Jon. Didnt forget about Cat telling Jon he should have fallen instead of Bran :

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I don't understand all this hate... I loved the scene, for many reasons; it reminded the non-readers about the mistery of jon's true parentage, and I started thinking that if jon really died at the end of ADWD, maybe she could be the one that resurrects him because she regrets for what she did to him

(btw I still think that jon's not dead, and that he's not a targ)

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Catelyn is a lovely mother, but a real bitch to Jon. Didnt forget about Cat telling Jon he should have fallen instead of Bran :

I think that was the point of the scene. So I don't understand why you hated it.

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when I first watched the scene I was furious, I hated it and would spit on it if I could.. I have since calmed down about the whole thing and have come to understand it better. it humanises Cat a bit more for the strictly viewers, it reaffirms her hard feelings for Jon that she has now (yes she felt bad and wanted to mother a dying small child-possibly baby, but the feelings wore off as soon as he was well) after seeing him grow into a man-almost she has no love in herself for him. I found Jons memories of Cat, when he copped a knock to the head while training with another brother of the nightswatch, to be very interesting when joined to this scene, the looks Cat would give him every time he had an achievement, every time he bested Robb at sword play, or when learning letters. she hated him more and more as he aged because he was good at what he did and she saw him as a danger to HER son. its easy to feel sorry for a small harmless child but when the child is growing into a strong clever man its east to hate him with all the fierceness a protective mother could muster. this scene IMO could also be setting us up for a encounter in TWOW. I also understand now that Cat wasn't claiming that if she loved Jon all these bad things wouldn't have happened, but more that if she hadn't made such a promise to the god and then break it, the gods would not have cursed her family and herself.

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She had that thought in a moment of desperation and extreme personal shame. Not out of love. It's just about being a responsible, decent person. Deep down Cat knows she's wrong, but she can't help it. The feelings are too strong. That's what that scene was about.


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I just can't bring myself to forgive Cat for her treatment of Jon. Was it the worst thing to happen in this series, not even remotely close, but right is right and wrong is wrong. Even though I can somewhat understand why she hated the boy, it doesn't make the hate right. Probably was just her Tully entitlement issue, that her sons were the only ones that mattered


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I think that this was a brilliant scene. I am one of those who dislike Cat and her relationship with Jon is one of the reasons. But I think that at this scene she was almost human when she said


all because I was jealous of his mother. A woman he didn’t even know.



seems to understand what she has done. It's a pity that it wasn't in the books.


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