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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

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I had no problem with how Cat was portrayed. I think it's in line with Cat's persona in the books. However, the problem I had was Talisa. First, she comes off as a headstrong, modern-minded woman who is Robb's equal when they meet. Now she's a meek daughter-in-law afraid to offend Cat. I never liked the Talisa/Jeyne change-up, I'll admit, but at least keep the character consistent!

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I'm pretty sure this scene exists, at least in part, to plant the idea that Jon Snow could be legitimized as a Stark. Considering the writers met with GRRM during the hiatus to find out where the story was going so they could start setting up character arcs/threads..... It is curious.

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Cat seems WAY too hard on herself. The dialogue would have worked better in Ned's cell back in Season 1. Something similar, but with Ned thinking about how his actions have brought ruin on his house.

In other words, it seems like Cat's regret in this scene should really have been Ned's, e.g. regret at putting Cat in a difficult situation, keeping Jon at arm's length, ect.

"...all because I couldn't love a motherless child" sounds very maudlin.

Geez, Cat, you'll run yourself ragged if you think that you have to be a mom to all the orphans in the world. Motherhood isn't a always a labor of love; sometimes its just labor.

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I didn't like the pox story as Cat could have just delivered the "it should have been you" line when Jon visited Bran. Now there's a bit of back tracking to cover the dynamic.

Her blaming herself for House Stark makes sense. She's religious and thinks there's a karmic price that the Starks are paying because she couldn't love. Fine. Even in the books, I blame her for most of House Stark's problems anyways. She touched off most of the drama by going after the Lannisters, while the murder plot with Lady Arynn was started by Littlefinger.

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Her blaming herself for House Stark makes sense. She's religious and thinks there's a karmic price that the Starks are paying because she couldn't love. Fine.

I think this was the one part of the exchange that was a bum note for me, But while it seems awfully melodramatic, it might be consistent with her belief system (assuming that her gods punish malicious prayers and oathbreaking, as many would). Otherwise, the whole scene felt right to me. I can see myself going through the same thought process in her shoes (because I'm a guy, of course, that takes quite an act of imagination).

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"What the crap!" was my initial thought when Cat reveled the second son was Jon Snow, but as she continued it was a return to normalcy for me. I do enjoy disliking her as much as I enjoy liking Daenerys and Arya.

As far as the changes from book to tv series/movie go, although they may be disappointing/pleasant surprise at times I have always tried to view them as a re-telling of a re-telling. While the book is the original account the shows/movies are similar to stories handed down orally; allowing minor characters to be added or taken out and have their story arcs changed to the story teller's liking. The producers have done a good job with this story in getting it out to those of us that had not read the books, and creating a desire to know the original story(IMO).

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I think I might be the first book fan to say this, but i really enjoyed it. Does it really hurt giving Cat a bit of guilt about Jon? I think it humanises her more, and adds a lot more depth to the way she treated Jon in the few scenes we saw them together. And we know she's a religious woman, so why not make her feel like her tragedies are punishment from the gods?

The speculation about it being relevant to future plot developments that we don't know about (but Martin and the writers do) is also valid.

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It was awful. It's obvious why they did it, with Robb's legitimising of Jon to follow but, wow, it was a mess. As far as I'm concerned the scene with Robb & Jon in S1E2 was all they needed as foreshadowing leading up to Robb legitimising him. We saw, for a brief moment, how close they were.

No, this scene was pure character development/exploration. Every scene in a drama series doesnt have to connect to a future event, some dialouges are there simply to establish a part of a characters personality.

this scene added a new layer to catelyns personality that we havent seen so far in the TV-series.

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I agree. The scene did not bother me at all, except for Catelyn feeling guilt about her arrogance. That seems out of character for her.

It's a bit of a stretch, but Catelyn's speech did not bother me as much as some of the other book-to-TV changes - such as the existence of Talisa and her becoming Robb's wife, or Sansa's refusing to go with the Hound because King's Landing was her home now (???rather than the Hound being an unstable drunk who held a knife to her neck), or Ros being a supporting character who is now Littlefinger's executive assistant or whatever.

I'm looking forward to Catelyn's return to Riverrun.

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I'm another book reader who liked the scene. I'll even go so far as to admit that it was something about book Cat's character that I really didn't like. She was a practical, just, devout, caring woman. It never sat well with me that she would have a burning lifelong hatred of somebody over something that they had absolutely no control over.

As others have said, you can't believe that she absolutely hated Jon every moment of his life. She prayed for his death out of anger, he came close to death, she prayed for his salvation out of guilt. I think that displaying conflicted emotions, if even for a night, was good. To me it showed that she knew in her heart that Jon had never done anything to deserve her treatment of him but her head wouldn't allow her to change it, and I think it was about the only deviation from book Cat that improved her character in a way.

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weren't some people in the books shocked that Jon Snow was allowed to eat with the family? That's why I mentioned that..

I don't remember this. In the one scene that we got in AGoT, Benjen Stark asks Jon why he is sitting at the lower tables and not with the family at the feast held for Robert. And Jon says that Cat did not want to insult the Royals by seating a bastard with them. And later he uses that excuse to join Mance Raydar and the wildlings. Other than that I can't recall anything special made of Jon eating at the table with the rest of the Starks. Ned brought up Jon in the same manner as the rest of his kids.

I did not have any issues with the Cat monologue in this episode. I think it's more about her faith than Jon. It may have added some layers to the character, but I still think it was unnecessary and they could have used this screen time elsewhere.

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Catelyn in the novel doesn't have a burning hatred of Jon. She doesn't want him around, that's about it. She isn't expected to want him around, by the values of her society.

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It may not be a evil queen in a disney movie kind of burning hatred, but she absolutely hated him. You don't treat somebody that everybody around you likes, that your husband considers a son and your children consider a brother, like absolute garbage for over a dozen years just because you'd prefer he not be there.

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To be honest I was OK with this scene. It felt a little out of place but I could run with it. I think the point is to bring through that Cat is someone who cares a lot for all her children (even Jon Snow a very little bit) so then when Lady Stoneheart comes much later it will seem all the greater.

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I don't think she treated Jon like garbage, but yeah, she hated him. If she was indifferent towards him she would not have cared if Jon stayed at WF or not. But she was absolutely insistent that Jon leave along with Ned and would rather prefer some distant lord in the vale get WF than Ned's own son. I would say she was indifferent towards Theon, but that she hated Jon. Which is understandable, considering he looked like Ned, was a reminder of Ned's infidelity and could be a threat to her children's inheritance. I can understand her hatred, but I can't justify her hating a kid for no fault of his own.

I don't see anything wrong in knowing that she could show some love and kindness to a motherless child when he was sick. Nothing wrong with that and it's far from character assassination.

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I had no problem with how Cat was portrayed. I think it's in line with Cat's persona in the books.

Clearly you didn't read her chapters at all then, because the show version is NOT the same AT ALL.

In the books, Catelyn is simply neutral to Jon (apart from one time when she's at her lowest point), and she never feels the need to apologise for this because she knows there is nothing wrong with her behaviour. Jon is not her child and he represents a danger to her family. She owes him nothing.

In the books, Catelyn does not identify herself as Jon's (step) mother. He's her husband's bastard; he has absolutely no connection to her.

In the books, Catelyn is not defined by her interaction with Jon Snow.

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You don't treat somebody that everybody around you likes, that your husband considers a son and your children consider a brother, like absolute garbage for over a dozen years just because you'd prefer he not be there.

Not having something to do with someone you're not expected to have anything to do with does not equal treating them as "absolute garbage". That's just silly. Treating someone like garbage would be putting them down every chance you get, but that's not what Catelyn did. Jon's desire for her to interact with him, such as it was, is an expectation that Ned's decisions created in him. Is it her fault that Ned put Jon in that position? Not at all.

As to wanting him out of Winterfell, if someone has been the guest of your husband in your household for 14 years without your ever having a say, I suppose you'd like to see that person get going at some point or another. The one thing marring their life is his decision to keep Jon around. Putting an end to it just made sense, pragmatically and in terms of their relationship. You'll note that Ned and Catelyn are perfectly tender with one another when they meet again in King's Landing, so the decision to send Jon away wasn't exactly something alienating to Ned.

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Clearly you didn't read her chapters at all then, because the show version is NOT the same AT ALL.

In the books, Catelyn is simply neutral to Jon (apart from one time when she's at her lowest point), and she never feels the need to apologise for this because she knows there is nothing wrong with her behaviour. Jon is not her child and he represents a danger to her family. She owes him nothing.

In the books, Catelyn does not identify herself as Jon's (step) mother. He's her husband's bastard; he has absolutely no connection to her.

In the books, Catelyn is not defined by her interaction with Jon Snow.

She did go out of her way to suggest alternative heirs for Robb, and later on revealed having told negative stories about him to her uncle.

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Maybe this scene is meant to foreshadow something in the future. Like, maybe Lady Stoneheart will reconcile with Jon before she is finally laid to rest.

There seems to have been a few scenes that foreshadow events in the two remaining books.

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