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teemo

[BOOK SPOILERS] Cat and Jon Snow

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Thought it was good. I had more of a problem with the Shae and Tyrion scene really.

This^^^^^.... I thought this was the best scene Cat has had in the series thus far. The Shae and Tyrion scene isn't really a good thing for their story arc. I really don't know how they're going to pull off the plot line between those two if they stay on this path of building Shae into a hooker with a heart of gold... It's been suggested that they may replace Tyrion's ex-wife with Shae in the show.

I still think this season has been leaps and bounds better than last season thus far and hope they keep on this path. They tied up some slip-ups from last season (Robb is headed to Riverrun and Bolton is in Harrenhall, Jaime back in captivity), while also cutting out some unneccessary story (Barristan as Arstan). Hopefully they stay on this apparent attempt to reconnect with the source material.

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EDIT: i'm quoting Francis Buck from another thread, because I think it's interesting:

Catelyn's story about Jon was...weird. It doesn't bother me, necessarily but it was definitely a strange addition. It's one of those instances (like Dany's vision of the Iron Throne destroyed and covered in snow) where I feel like the showrunners know important things about the end of the series, and thus are purposely foreshadowing events that the book readers could have no inkling to. I really don't think they just make up random shit like that for the sake of it (though that's how many book readers seem to feel).

Showrunners were stating the obvious with iron throne destroyed and covered in snow. Except for the fact that maybe Dany WILL return to westeros. If she does return, westeros will be deep into winter and possibly in the middle of the long night v2.0 by the time she reaches kings landing.

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What the fuck have they done with Cat.

I entered this season with a great determination to accept the changes and enjoy the show, but the whole "It's my fault" thing is ridiculous.

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I was confused by the scene as it was happening, but when it ended I'm thinking it was a necessary insertion to create empathy for Cat

I understand what you're saying, but if the creation of empathy wasn't there all ready with her losing her husband, daughters, two sons, her home and - with the ill conceived marriage of her son - the North, I'm not sure this is going to buy anything.

The fact that it all gets dumped onto her not being able to love Jon just doesn't fit.

It makes sense she has issue with Ned bringing some other woman's child home, it makes sense she would feel anger at both of them, but how they seem to be trying to tie it together appears...MacGuyverish. Thrown together to make something we think should work. We'll have to see how it plays out, but just don't like the feel of what they had her say.

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Thank God I was spoiled or I would've broken my TV or something, that's how disgusting and stupid this scene is.

"I'll be a mother to him."

"...all because I couldn't love a motherless child" - :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: . What the hell? Why is she supposed to love a kid who is not hers? Sickening nonsense.

Vanessa Taylor is simply terrible, all of her episodes were the weakest written in the series.

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I took this scene to be more about Cat's relationship with the Seven than her relationship with Jon. She feels the gods are punishing her for breaking a promise she made to them.

I think when a series of tragic things happens, it's natural for a person as religious as Cat to ask why their god is punishing them. In her case, this may be the only time where she essentially bargained with the gods -- to relieve her GUILT at wishing a child dead, not out of a sudden wave of compassion -- and then reneged on her promise to them once she got what she had prayed for.

I don't think this scene in any way implies that her life is defined by her relationship with Jon. I DO think her religious devotion is an important aspect of her character, however. For that reason I wasn't bothered by this scene at all. In fact, I found it quite emotional.

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I though it was a good scene. it made Cat more likeable. I hate her in the book, and this made me like her a little better. IMO it makes her more like a real person.

EXCEPT the fact that she states that she would beg Ned to give Jon the Stark name. Jon could be older than Robb (they are born in the same year) and this would make him then heir to Winterfell. Very unlikely that she would want him to be legitimized.

I like the fact that she basically says that she tried to love a motherless child, but just couldn't do it. It made her more real. In the books she is just a overly religious woman that hates a little baby for reasons he can't change. In the show she at least tried to love him.

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I had no problem with the scene itself, but it was odd, it seems to mean that they'll have Cat be the one whose idea it is to make Jon Robb's heir or that the show writers know something about the end of Cat's story that we don't. Otherwise, what is the purpose of throwing it in there?

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I really liked this scene partially because Michelle Fairley is so excellent as Cat. I felt the emotion and I thought it was a chance to depict Cat's guilt towards Jon, which you only get a glimpse of in the books and only because she's a POV character. It also reveals Cat's relationship with the Seven Gods which is important because her faith is such an essential part of her character as well. I found it to be a very moving scene. I think Cat gets a lot of grief but people continually forget what a state of depression and sadness she is in throughout the series.

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"I'll be a mother to him."

"...all because I couldn't love a motherless child" - :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: :bang: . What the hell? Why is she supposed to love a kid who is not hers? Sickening nonsense.

It's called compassion. You may have heard of it.

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The redeeming part of the her scene is that she just can't bring herself to love him. It certainly made her more human. I almost choked when she said she wanted Snow to have the Stark name. Thank you D&D for not leaving it as her wishing he was a Stark. I may have stopped watching the series if they did. Great scene in how it ended.

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I think that this is one of the less intrusive changes that D&D has made on the character of Catelyn. Her letting Jaime go before finding out about Bran and Rikon and her telling Ned Stark not to go to King's Landing were far greater changes in my opinion.

This story, while completely made up, seemed to stay consistent with what we know of her from the books. She is compassionate, worships the seven, and doesn't love Jon Snow.

I don't think it's consistent at all. First, praying regularly for Jon Snow to die, given that she is a devout believer, is well above any hatred she had for him in the books. Much more serious than saying Jon should've died instead of Bran after weeks of grief.

Second, it just goes against her whole persona from the books to make a serious promise (to the gods or to anyone else) and not follow through with it. She always keeps her word.

Third, no matter how distraught she was, Cat from the books would never even consider asking Ned to legitimise Jon because this would go against the interest of the Tully family and her own children. "Family, duty, honor" aren't just words for her.

And then there's that completely nonsensical "all because I couldn't love a motherless child." line which again is a 180 degree turn from Cat in the books, since she never felt the least bit of guilt over that, and rightly so.

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Catelyn is a bitch in the books. Let's call it what it is. Let's not soften it. She treated Jon like shit.

No, Ned was the bastard who created the whole situation unnecessarily out of misplaced sense of guilt. Let's put the blame where it belongs. He and he alone was responsible for both Cat's and Jon's pain, because he just didn't think the things through. Both Jon and Cat would have been happier if Ned had gone the traditional route of having Jon fostered _and_ prepared a decent career for him, worthy of a knight or equivalent. It is normal even for legitimate children to be fostered, why should Jon be such a special snowflake?

All that talk about society, man that's ridiculous. I liked when Robb snapped on her in the book and put her in her place, when he told her Jon would be her heir.

Oh, but you seemingly like a society where a woman can be"put in her place" by a stripling son, who is making naive, irrational decisions right and left.

Black brothers can't inherit. Even the Ironborn during the Conquest were honorable and law-abiding enough to understand it. But not Robb. Not to mention that normally in Westeros a cousin twice removed _is_ a more acceptable heir than a bastard _and_ of course, if one of the girls was recovered, she could marry him, so the whole Stark/Tully connection could continue.

That's what a lot of fathers would've have done.

I find it funny how so many people defend Jon's "right" to be a "Stark", but not of Cersei's bastards to inherit after their "step-father" ;). After all, why limit it to fathers?

Now, the sentiment of Cat trying to warm to Jon and failing is actually from the books, from Cat's PoV. She also salved her conscience re: Jon going to NW with the fact of Ben being there and taking over the "father role" for him (which didn't work, but she couldn't have known it). She did care about his well-being, in a way, nor did she ever want him to be just tossed out to starve in the streets.

OTOH, the idea of Jon having a Stark name? Even in a moment of guilt, it makes zero sense. it is a completely nonsensical and counter-intuitive departure from the original.

Why on earth would Cat want Jon to steal her younger children's inheritance? Even if she could bring herself to love him, she never would have wanted it. No parent would in such a situation, not unless they actually disliked/hated their own kids.

It made her more real. In the books she is just a overly religious woman that hates a little baby for reasons he can't change. In the show she at least tried to love him.

Huh? Actually, this is straight from Cat's PoV in the books, particularly in the chapter where she travels with Mya Stone to the Eyrie in AGOT. She did try to love Jon and couldn't and felt guilty about it.

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No, Ned was the bastard who created the whole situation unnecessarily out of misplaced sense of guilt. Let's put the blame where it belongs. He and he alone was responsible for both Cat's and Jon's pain, because he just didn't think the things through. Both Jon and Cat would have been happier if Ned had gone the traditional route of having Jon fostered _and_ prepared a decent career for him, worthy of a knight or equivalent. It is normal even for legitimate children to be fostered, why should Jon be such a special snowflake?

Because Jon probably isn't Ned's bastard, but the son of his dead sister Lyanna, and a child he likely swore to protect and raise as his own. There's no telling if there may have been some Targaryen traits develop as he grew older, and fostering him somewhere else is probably a risk Ned chose not to run. Ned kept him close because of his promise, and to ensure that he was safe.

And regardless of whether or not Ned could have done things differently doesn't justify book Catelyn's actions towards Jon. That's not saying she needed to treat Jon as well as if he were her natural born son, but some of her cruelty towards him was rather non-Seven like. I don't think that made her a horrible person, but she was still responsible for her own actions.

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Catelyn is a bitch in the books. Let's call it what it is. Let's not soften it. She treated Jon like shit. Her kids loved Jon and treated him like he was their true brother. This scene humanized her. All that talk about society, man that's ridiculous. I liked when Robb snapped on her in the book and put her in her place, when he told her Jon would be her heir. I think a lot of kids wouldn't like their mother treating their half brother like an outcast. Ned was wise to have his kids treat Jon like he was their true brother. That's what a lot of fathers would've have done. I like TV show Cat way better then book Cat. Book Cat was unreasonable.

I don't agree with you at all. Catelyn is an honorable woman but just has a shortcoming in handling her emotions around Jon. Those emotions were built up by that Ned took him back but never even gave her an explanation, making it seem like he had some true love while he was away while Cat and Ned were still strangers to each other since he left so soon after their wedding. Her betrothed had been murdered, she married his brother, moved up to a foreign place to her in the cold North, they conceived a baby and then he left her for a long time. She didn't knew the man who left and probably even less the man that came back with secrets.

This scene showed this part of her a bit more visibly, while you have to figure it out more for yourself in the book. I don't think she comes off as a bitch at all in the books. She acts poorly at times but it's always with realstic reasons in my view. There's of course room for different interpretations but if someone thinks that Catelyn is a bitch and Ned is a real good guy then my opinion is that the reader has missed things.

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Great scene, I love the way the showrunners are actually able to invent new material to stop the series from being something utterly stale for us book readers. Personally, I've read the books and I want to see a few little details added to make it worth my while watching! Lo and behold, it is worth watching!

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FLoW,

And regardless of whether or not Ned could have done things differently doesn't justify book Catelyn's actions towards Jon.

Outside of Bran's bedchamber incident, there were no "Catelyn's actions towards Jon". Winterfell's a big place, and she had no reason or desire to interact with him, no more than random guardsman #2 had to go out of their way to hang out with him if they didn't feel like it.

It's Ned who creates the expectation in Jon that maybe Catelyn should act like a mother to him, perhaps, but that's on Ned.

That's not saying she needed to treat Jon as well as if he were her natural born son, but some of her cruelty towards him was rather non-Seven like.

She was never cruel to him, outside of that said incident.

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Cat is definitely religious. If you want to understand her motivation here, jump into the mind of someone who really believes that the gods have power. She's also a real person, a person who cannot subsist on pure hatred. It's reasonable to think that she couldn't keep up a hatred for Jon Snow for 14 straight years. So, so far, we have these:

-Cat prayed for Jon to die

-Jon begins to die

-Cat recognizes that her prayer for Jon's death has been answered.

So, naturally, Cat feels guilty. If Jon dies here, she'd never be able to live it down, knowing that she deliberately murdered this child. So, she tries to "take back" her prayer, to make promises in order to not live with that guilt. However, Cat cannot keep her promises. She falls right back into hating Jon Snow.

There's really nothing wrong with this scene. If anything, it makes Cat that much more of a tragically-flawed character, showing more internal conflict in one of the best characters of the series. I like it.

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I love this scene. A lot of TV-only viewers hate Cat more than any other character because she was "mean to Jon Snow in the second episode". If anyone's going to feel any sadness for her because of the RW then they've got to make TV viewers like her a bit more.

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The problem is that she says only a mother can make one of those things for her child. Ergo, she understands that she has an obligation to Jon as his step-mother. This makes her a bad mother in an objective way.

In the novels, she has no such obligation, she isn't his mother or step-mother, and judgments of her do not rest on the notion that she bore that sort of obligation.

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