[Book Spoilers] Theon!

[sifth]

Good because all 3 are guilty of child murder. Ned at the iron islanders (Theon's brothers were still underage) and probably some of the Nights watch who were underage. Robert ordered the killing of Elia's kids. And robb even killed many innocent people in his war, and probably some kids too.

Ned didn't' personally kill Theon's brothers; even so they were old enough to take part in war, unlike Theon at the time, so they were probably around Robb and Jon's age. Robert didn't kill Elia's kids, Tywin acted on his own, Robert's crime was not punishing Tywin for doing such a horrible thing. Robb never really hurt anyone outside of the battlefield, though many might have been hurt as a result of his war.

you're gona have to try a lot harder than that my friend, ha ha ha

[BananaSpice]

Ned didn't' personally kill Theon's brothers; even so they were old enough to take part in war, unlike Theon at the time, so they were probably around Robb and Jon's age. Robert didn't kill Elia's kids, Tywin acted on his own, Robert's crime was not punishing Tywin for doing such a horrible thing. Robb never really hurt anyone outside of the battlefield, though many might have been hurt as a result of his war.

you're gona have to try a lot harder than that my friend, ha ha ha

I'm not really sure what we're trying to prove anymore (that hasn't already been stated) ... which characters do you think are "GOOD" if Theon is so awful? Just curious.

[sifth]

I'm not really sure what we're trying to prove anymore (that hasn't already been stated) ... which characters do you think are "GOOD" if Theon is so awful? Just curious.

Davos

edit: The Half Hand and The Old Bear as well

[BananaSpice]

Davos

Well, he was a smuggler before he became the "onion knight" ... so he was constantly breaking the law. That's why Stannis chopped his fingers! lol ... so yeah, it's not as bad as killing people, but still ... breaking the law. I agree, he's a great character.

I just feel that the only true villains in the story are Joffrey, Ramsay, and Roose. Maybe the Freys, but they had SOME justification that wasn't simply based on selfishness. Cersei is pretty bad, but I give her a bit of a pass for being misguided due to her frustration at being a woman in a man's world.

[TheDarkOne]

It makes one wonder how far they will go with the mutilations? In the books it was heavily hinted at that Theon's manhood was cut off. Hopefully the show doesn't hold back and follows through with this. To capture the essence of his story they need to convey all of the suffering.

[oakenhelm]

Bouncing off the "swearing fealty" thing ... I'm pretty sure Theon never actually bends the knee to Robb in the book, or am I wrong? Like, I'm pretty sure Robb doesn't make him do that, b/c the original plan was for Balon to help Robb and then be elevated to a king again, and Theon would be the heir and eventually King of the Iron Islands ... so it wouldn't do for him to be bannerman to the King in the North, right?

Anyway ... I know that's different in the show, and yes, Theon does betray Robb. He does turn his cloak ... but it was really only after turning it agains his father first, right? I mean, not everyone can be strong all the time, and a lot of people would give in to their family if humiliated into it. Was he supposed to leave the Iron Islands and go back to Robb? To turn his back on his family who he DID love and his house who he had a lot of pride in? Would they have let him go? Would Robb have been encouraged to kill him to stop Balon's rebellion? I mean ... there is A LOT at play here. It's not always simply a decision of "do the right thing, or the wrong thing" ... what's tragic is Theon is always thinking he's doing the right thing, and then quickly realizing he's made some horrible mistake or things didn't go the great way he planned.

I think that's right about the books. It's been too long for me to remember anything else that would hint to it. Certainly as a confidant, man in battle and emissary for Robb it is more than implied. But it is also true that being Lord of Winterfell and having dominion over the North implies fealty to the Iron Throne as well. What was keeping Theon from leaving? Do we have any indication that he would have otherwise fled had Robb not sent him to Balon?

Thing is that Robb offers Theon a way to have his cake and eat it too. That is to remain loyal to the Starks and his born family AND keeping his claim. Of course Balon is an asshole of the first order. I agree with everything else you wrote. And I don't think he is an evil person at heart.

I understand the family dynamic at play for Theon and I can certainly reason out why he did what he did. My biggest problem with Theon when he goes is home is at what point do you decide that your blood family are a bunch of douchebags and leave them behind? I understand it is not easy, but people separate themselves from their family for these very reasons.

What I am saying is that in general I can understand taking the side of a blood family vs. an adoptive/ward family. But when it is Greyjoy vs. Stark, it becomes an easier choice, imo and one that he was fully aware of.

[oakenhelm]

It makes one wonder how far they will go with the mutilations? In the books it was heavily hinted at that Theon's manhood was cut off. Hopefully the show doesn't hold back and follows through with this. To capture the essence of his story they need to convey all of the suffering.

You want Ramsey to hold up a sausage in the front of the camera? :lol:

[BananaSpice]

I understand the family dynamic at play for Theon and I can certainly reason out why he did what he did. My biggest problem with Theon when he goes is home is at what point do you decide that your blood family are a bunch of douchebags and leave them behind? I understand it is not easy, but people separate themselves from their family for these very reasons.

What I am saying is that in general I can understand taking the side of a blood family vs. an adoptive/ward family. But when it is Greyjoy vs. Stark, it becomes an easier choice, imo and one that he was fully aware of.

I think severing ties with your family b/c they assholes is a very modern notion, though. Families/houses have HUGE meaning in the world of ASOIAF. He also did spend his first 10 years with them. I think during his time as a prisoner of the Starks, he kind of ... built up his family / House in his mind, though? Sort of as a defense mechanism and to keep his pride. He brags about the Greyjoys and thinks about his inheritance a lot ... so it was a huge disappointment when he comes home to strangers who don't know him and don't like him. He tries desperately to salvage the fantasy of his family that he had built up for 10 years ... he doesn't even realize that he's simultaneously trying to be like a Stark, and the two cannot coincide.

[TheDarkOne]

You want Ramsey to hold up a sausage in the front of the camera? :lol:

Not so much that, but something shot in a way to convey the deed was done. Think about the scene where Joff had the singers tongue removed and it happened in the distance, same thing just different appendage. It could be shot in the same way.

[BananaSpice]

Not so much that, but something shot in a way to convey the deed was done. Think about the scene where Joff had the singers tongue removed and it happened in the distance, same thing just different appendage. It could be shot in the same way.

Isn't there still some dispute as to exactly what has happened to Theon's genitalia? Like, GRRM hinted at some point that we'll find out for sure?

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

I found one excerpt sort of telling, the Greyjoy mantra: We don't sow, we don't reap, we don't . . . we take what is ours. In other words they are all criminals, fighting for the throne. Theon renewed his oath in waters of Pyke. He made it his goal to be the conqueror. In the pursuit of that goal, he burned two kids.

if you want to say he is tragic in the sense that he is unequal to the task of good leadership, so be it. But not in my mind. He is a monster of his own accord.

your right he killed 2 children and their mother I recall

alright tell me I'm wrong. Tell me Ramsay/Clef Jaw talked him into it, that he had no choice. I love people defending children killers, their excuses are always quite fun to here

simply put, getting bad advice from someone is not an excuse for killing children, almost nothing is really

:agree: With both of you, "the road to hell is paved with the best intentions", and yet people on here are defending his actions based on his motivations...

Nobody is saying it's ok to kill children. That was horrible. It's supposed to be horrible. However, in light of the world in ASOIF/Game of Thrones and how everyone behaves and how they do things (i.e. taking hostages like Theon that they would kill if their parents rebel, etc.) ... it's not THE WORST POSSIBLE THING. It's like ... people think Theon is the worst character ever b/c he had two children killed. Yes, it was selfish and horrible, but that one act doesn't make him deserving of torture, and he is still sympathetic in light of how his life has been (not that he necessarily has "suffered" like he does later ... but more just the psychology of never belonging, his situation as a hostage, etc.)

Whoa, what do you consider the "worse thing" if skinning two innocent boys faces are no big deal.

This from the show wiki:

Lord Umber declared that there was only one king he would ever serve, the King in the North. Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover and Jonos Bracken, a local river lord, were among those who swore fealty to Robb, as did Theon Greyjoy. The call was then taken up by all of Robb's bannermen, chanting "the King in the North!".^[

So at least in the show Theon swears an oath of fealty to Robb. This is probably in the book too but i couldn't find the relevant passage thru google (don't have my copy sorry).

In any case that makes Theon a turncloak. Then after turning his cloak to serve his father once again, Theon explicitely disobeys his father's orders in search of greater glory...

Theon chose those things, just as he chose to continue this folly (holding WF) even after Asha/Yara does everything she can to talk some sense into him. Just as he chose to execute someone, and kill two kids in the hopes he could save himself from the shame of failure. Not to mention loosing a known criminal from the WF dungeon's to his woe...

Do I feel sorry for him after all that he's been through? Sure, but does that excuse any of his choices? Nope, he got what he deserved because 1. It is a direct consequence of his actions, and 2. His motivations were never anything but selfish.

[kevin1989]

Ned didn't' personally kill Theon's brothers; even so they were old enough to take part in war, unlike Theon at the time, so they were probably around Robb and Jon's age. Robert didn't kill Elia's kids, Tywin acted on his own, Robert's crime was not punishing Tywin for doing such a horrible thing. Robb never really hurt anyone outside of the battlefield, though many might have been hurt as a result of his war.

you're gona have to try a lot harder than that my friend, ha ha ha

Robert wants Danny killed. Robb killed not only in the battle field, he killed fisher villagers, who weren't armed, probably some children with it. Same as for Ned, there is a change that there were a couple of children who belong to the NW that he killed. I just meant that the Theon part struck people hard because he was working against the Starks. Cat killed an innocent child in SoS, nobody does you hear about that.

Davos

edit: The Half Hand and The Old Bear as well

the Half-hand killed innocent wildlings. Probably some children. But is this right because they are wildlings?

And Davos is one of my favorites.

And don't get me wrong, I hate children murders. But Theon warned bran. Listen to me and no harm come to you. They should have listen.

but still when innocent people got killed (and children) in my book it's not a difference to what Theon did or what Robb did. Robb started a war, where thousands and thousands of innocent people were killed. If he hadn't go to war, these people would have lived.

[Hoo]

But Theon warned bran. Listen to me and no harm come to you. They should have listen.

smh

[kevin1989]

:agree: With both of you, "the road to hell is paved with the best intentions", and yet people on here are defending his actions based on his motivations...

Whoa, what do you consider the "worse thing" if skinning two innocent boys faces are no big deal.

This from the show wiki:

Lord Umber declared that there was only one king he would ever serve, the King in the North. Rickard Karstark, Maege Mormont, Galbart Glover and Jonos Bracken, a local river lord, were among those who swore fealty to Robb, as did Theon Greyjoy. The call was then taken up by all of Robb's bannermen, chanting "the King in the North!".^[

So at least in the show Theon swears an oath of fealty to Robb. This is probably in the book too but i couldn't find the relevant passage thru google (don't have my copy sorry).

In any case that makes Theon a turncloak. Then after turning his cloak to serve his father once again, Theon explicitely disobeys his father's orders in search of greater glory...

Theon chose those things, just as he chose to continue this folly (holding WF) even after Asha/Yara does everything she can to talk some sense into him. Just as he chose to execute someone, and kill two kids in the hopes he could save himself from the shame of failure. Not to mention loosing a known criminal from the WF dungeon's to his woe...

Do I feel sorry for him after all that he's been through? Sure, but does that excuse any of his choices? Nope, he got what he deserved because 1. It is a direct consequence of his actions, and 2. His motivations were never anything but selfish.

The boys were dead before skinning. And as you said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Robb included.

[kevin1989]

smh

???

I understand why they left. But still was it the right chose? Those boys would be alive. And even they left their people. The people who they should have been protecting. If Bran felled he needed to help his people, why did he leave?

[oakenhelm]

I think severing ties with your family b/c they assholes is a very modern notion, though. Families/houses have HUGE meaning in the world of ASOIAF. He also did spend his first 10 years with them. I think during his time as a prisoner of the Starks, he kind of ... built up his family / House in his mind, though? Sort of as a defense mechanism and to keep his pride. He brags about the Greyjoys and thinks about his inheritance a lot ... so it was a huge disappointment when he comes home to strangers who don't know him and don't like him. He tries desperately to salvage the fantasy of his family that he had built up for 10 years ... he doesn't even realize that he's simultaneously trying to be like a Stark, and the two cannot coincide.

Fair points

[BananaSpice]

I think I might just have to agree to disagree ... b/c I don't necessarily disagree about a lot of what the Theon haters are saying, I think I just feel differently about it. Like, to me, suffering perhaps the cruelest fate in the books thus far as a result of your own failings and mistakes is ridiculously tragic and sad. He was never an evil person to begin with, either, so I just cannot think that he deserves it.

[Ser Endrew Tarth]

The boys were dead before skinning.

Oh, well that makes it all okay then! /end sarcasm

And as you said the road to hell is paved with good intentions. Robb included.

I'm not defending Robb or anyone else, just wondering why theon is being defended...

[BananaSpice]

Oh, well that makes it all okay then! /end sarcasm

I'm not defending Robb or anyone else, just wondering why theon is being defended...

Probably b/c his character is one of the most complex in the story, so there is a lot of material to discuss and contention between fans.

[Sun]

Theon is a scumbag. He was a scumbag in AGOT, a royal scumbag in ACOK, and a broken, pathetic, cowed scumbag in ADWD. I feel sorry for him for what he has suffered, no one deserves that, but I certainly do not forget what he is, or what he did.