[BOOK SPOILERS] Tyrion & Sansa

[Abaddon]

Shae betraying Tyrion, which was never given a reason in the book. So, we assumed it was her whore-ish nature that led to it. Maybe they're giving this a deeper storyline?

I think there's some real doubt as to whether Shae "betrayed" Tyrion in the book. She's a whore. Honestly, what does she really owe Tyrion? It's abundantly clear in several scenes in the book she's in it for the money, not through any genuine feelings for Tyrion. Show Shae seems much more genuinely to care about Tyrion. I agree that this is starting to show some cracks that will be absolutely critical to make events like those that occur in the book later on remotely plausible.

[EDIT] Basically, everything lotun said up above. 100% agree.

[ChillinLikeSerIlyn]

The whole idea of his father proposing the marriage was to enforce that Tywin was still in charge, and could force his son into whatever he chose to suit the realm. Tyrion's unwillingness in his marriage fuels his hatred for his father, which is pretty important given the way things turn out between the two of them. I'm really worried about this whole arc now that you've raised this...

Tyrion's anger at his father was not in large part based on his marriage to Sansa, but his first marriage. I don't think having him marry her was part of controlling Tyrion but more of tying up Winterfell. He even says he will marry her to Lancel if Tyrion rejects it and is genuinely surprised when Tyrion shows doubts to the arrangement. Certainly Tyrion gets angry when Tywin later brings up the lack of consummation but it seems like he was initially open to things if Sansa would have accepted him.

[HopeForSpring]

I said this in another thread, but I think TV Show Shae is way more likable than Book Shae and I think they are setting it up that Tywin is going to kill Shae and have that be a fresher reason for Tyrion to kill Tywin since on the TV show we can't hear him replaying his failed first love over and over again in his heart.

It is a big departure, but since Shae is all sweetness and light in the TV show I think Dad destroying HER as an echo of the past slight is going to be the giant motivator better understood by a TV audience that hasn't been inside Tyrion's head so much.

[Tenlaar]

I hope they don't end up having Tywin kill her. With the sort of white-knighting they've done with Tyrion, not showing much of his dark and deadly side, having him kill the lover that betrayed him and father that never loved him will be a shocking eye-opener to the TV audience.

I also really, really, REALLY want to see Dinklage do that scene as it is in the books. It would be fantastic.

[Former Lord of Winterfell]

I think there's some real doubt as to whether Shae "betrayed" Tyrion in the book. She's a whore. Honestly, what does she really owe Tyrion?

Just because you're a prostitute doesn't make it okay to give false testimony against someone that results in a death sentence. Had Shae not testified against Tyrion, strangling her would have been horrible. As it is, da bitch got what was coming to her.

[KoishNoish]

Should the Sansa story arc diverge from what it was in the books too much I fear I will loose all interest in her in the TV series. I liked her chapters in the books a lot because of all the hits she had to take (Father's death, Joffrey's treatment, led to hope in the Tyrell's before being wed off to Tyrion who she did not want to marry and never loved). If they make it so she and Tyrion actually get along really well then I feel that the entire thing is going to crumble. I loved the fact that Tyrion did desire her but Sansa obviously did not desire him and yet we did not think Sansa in fault for it. I want them to be able to make Sansa the way she was written in the books because that version works very well.

I think the seeds of jealousy are being planted from Shae that may give reason to the 'treachery' against Tyrion, although saying that she is a whore. (Oh and HBO Tywin seems too proud to be in bed with a whore).

I'll tell you which character I am watching and always love to watch though. Littlefinger. Varys too. Because, although I've read the books, they still both seem so unpredictable and ahead of everyone else.

Hopefully they won't ruin Sansa, I'm fine if somehow they change her and keep her interesting but please don't have her and Tyrion fall in love like in some fairy tale!

[willowbark]

I thought that the Tywin - Tyrion scene last week perfectly sets Tyrion up to marry Sansa. Tywin will never let Tyrion Casterly Rock, which Tyrion wants and considers his birthright, with Jamie in the Kinsguard, and Cercei a woman. So all we need is to see Tywin tell Tyrion that he cannot ever have Casterly Rock, but marry Sansa, and he can have Winterfell. With this conversation happening before the RW, it also gives Tyrion the clue later on that Tywin had a hand in the RW.

[Tadco26]

I've never been a fan of TV Shae, or her "guardian angel" role for Sansa. It seems likely that the scene was setting up Sansa's wedding to Tyrion as what will cause Shae to betray him. It felt very forced, considering she seemed more mad at Tyrion saying Sansa was beautiful than she was that Tyrion slept with Ros twice.

[greensleeves]

Since Dontos has been cut out, I think it's somewhat likely that Shae will be the one to leak Sansa's Tyrell offer. If Shae tells this to Tyrion (who then spills the beans to Tywin), it would make the wedding even more painful for Shae. Shae would have been used as an unwitting spy against someone she feels very protective towards; the guilt and anger she feels because of that could add to her motivation for betraying Tyrion.

[go joff go]

Its obvious to me that the show is building up a breakdown of Tyrion and Shae's relationship because of his marriage to Sansa. I actually thought that the scene was brilliant and shows some long term thinking on behalf of the showrunners, and am surprised that some people seem to have found it pointless. It builds up Tyrion explaining to Shae that Sansa is a perfect match for any lord, coming from an old family and having a pretty face, seeming unconcerned about her fate, and Shae being disgusted with his attitude. I think the show will also slightly move away from the direction of the book in how they handle the consummation of the marriage. Tyrion will not do anything, but I think Tywin (or maybe Tyrion himself) will let it be known that they have, which will disgust Shae.

I definitely think the proposal for the marriage will come from Tywin and will not be some kind of 'scheme' that Shae and Tyrion come up with. Why would Shae think to 'protect' Sansa by marrying her to her own lover, knowing full well that marriage means consummation with her husband, and her obvious disgust at Tyrion seeing Sansa as attractive?

I actually like this change quite a bit better than the books. Much more dramatic. And it actually makes Tyrion a much greyer character. The show makes him seem slightly unconcerned about Sansa's fate, even though he's been semi-protective of her up to know, and has shown him a) to be have ambition to become a great lord in himself given he wants Casterly Rock, and B) to consider Sansa a great match for any lord. I think the marriage will have an element of selfishness on behalf of Tyrion. I think Shae will betray him because of it, and he will kill her at the end as he did in the books. And it also makes Tyrion's fall much more heart-felt because he kills a woman whom he actually loved, and who actually loved him at one point, rather than a young girl who never truly pretended to be anything other than a whore.

This was definitely one of my FAVORITE scenes in the episode.

I think we have a winner, and I hope its true, as its actually a pretty intricate plot where almost everyone is in the right and wrong-Tywin, Tyrion, Shae, Sansa will all have set themselves up without really realizing it. To me its a very clever way to tie up all these threads

[crazibouncer]

Instead of Tyrion proposing the marriage. Maybe Shae, who is cool with Varys, tells him about maybe marrying them, because she wants her protected. In a council meeting Varys tells it to Tywin and bam. Shae then can get jealous or something and lead to you know what. I literally just thought f this so it is not fully though out lol.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

I've never been a fan of TV Shae, or her "guardian angel" role for Sansa. It seems likely that the scene was setting up Sansa's wedding to Tyrion as what will cause Shae to betray him. It felt very forced, considering she seemed more mad at Tyrion saying Sansa was beautiful than she was that Tyrion slept with Ros twice.

There are three important scenes to remember here.

1. Ros tells Shae, Sansa is an important, her father owned a castle. Shae doesn't quite know what this means for Sansa.

2. Shae tells Sansa that men are only interested in one thing from women. In Shae's case this is true. In Sansa's case it is not.

3. Tyrion tries to explain to Shae that any lord will want to marry her for her name, her claim and her beauty. Her looks are icing on the cake, it's her claim people want, they could care much less what she looks like.

[wolverine]

The show will completely ruin Sansa`s arc. There`s no doubt in that. Not long ago I said that TV Tyrion is much lovable than book Tyrion, and because of that, TV fans will hate Sansa for her behaviour in that marriage.

Never forget that at the moment of his wedding Tyrion has nothing. And with the wedding he could gain a lot. He isn`t some Prince Charming trying to save her from some unthinkable horrors.

And if producers pull that on Tyrion and Sansa, I`ll be really disappointed with their shortsightness when Sansa`s character is concerned

That is a good point I had not considered. With how much more likable show Tyrion has been Sansa could really come off as a bitch to fans of the show.

Eh, I dunno about that. In 3x02, the episode paired Shae's warning to Sansa about men only wanting one thing from a pretty girl with Tyrion commenting on Sansa being a great beauty, linking Shae's comment about the nefarious intentions of men towards pretty girls with Tyrion's noticing Sansa's beauty. (And Shae expressed outrage towards Tyrion referring to Sansa as a great beauty, calling him a pervert and Sansa a child.)

I mean, it could go any number of ways, but it seems like TV Sansa and TV Tyrion are tracking fairly close to their book selves right now: Sansa is starry-eyed about the Tyrells, and Tyrion views Sansa as beautiful but really isn't losing any sleep worrying about her plight. Sounds about right.

Not sure what that has to do with how likable Tyrion is to fans of the show.

I still think they are going to change how cold blooded Tyrion's killing of Shae is from the books, maybe he won't kill her at all.

[Newstar]

Not sure what that has to do with how likable Tyrion is to fans of the show.

Because Shae's lines in 3x02 underscore how gross and predatory an older man like Tyrion's interest in Sansa would be given her age, which would go some way towards undermining Tyrion's likability and any attempts down the line to cast him as the helpless victim in the marriage. A lot will also depend on the circumstances under which Tyrion agrees to the marriage: unless Tywin straight-up coerces him, his agreement to the marriage also casts him in the role of an older man preying on a young woman whom he has already identified as a "great beauty." That could have a big impact on TV Tyrion's likability (as could TV Tyrion entering into a marriage despite already being committed to and making protestations of love to Shae). So I think it's relevant, yes.

[wolverine]

I don't think people thought that way as much then. But I guess it could make a difference to fans.

Great beauty is hardly disgusting terminology IMO. I just don't know how much they are willing to mess with how likable he is though.

[Newstar]

I just don't know how much they are willing to mess with how likable [Tyrion] is though.

Well, if they're ever going to catch him up to Book Tyrion, who's at best a nasty piece of work, or ADWD Tyrion, who's a horrible human being, they're going to have to start soon. The writers can get away with a fairly whitewashed Tyrion for adapting AGOT and ACOK, but past the PW and into the trial, unless they start catching up his character to his book self, who's capable of murdering his father and his former lover, they're going to have to start pretty soon.

Great beauty is hardly disgusting terminology IMO.

That's true, but Shae, identified in this episode as very protective of Sansa when it comes to predatory older men, was all over it, calling Tyrion a pervert and referring to Sansa as a child. It's doubtful that she was that genuinely incensed and she was probably just giving him grief, since Tyrion and Shae made up right afterwards (something I doubt she would do if she really believed he had some interest in Sansa), but it plants a seed of doubt for the TV viewer, as it's left ambiguous. Was Tyrion just innocently commenting in the abstract about her looks, which is likely, or is there some latent attraction there he accidentally betrayed and had to backtrack to downplay? And that seed of doubt will be important down the line when the Tyrion/Sansa marriage comes into play. Is he agreeing because he's being forced by Tywin, or is he agreeing because he wants Sansa?

[Juliads]

How many viewers interpreted the shae&Tyrion scene as Shae simply being jealous, or Shae actually feeling protective of Sansa?

I'm leaning towards Shae feeling protective, but her delivery is always so quick and playful, teasing almost. Because of this it can be difficult to get a sense of her primary motivations. It's a grossly overused cliche to have Shae take the jealousy route. One that most people may automatically assume just because it's so commonplace in other forms of entertainment.

I am still holding onto some glimmer of hope that S3 will be true to Tyrion's character growth. It will be enraging if his marriage to Sansa is portrayed as anything other than the land-grabbing power play it was. If the writers attempt to make him appear to be the innocent victim, or some gallant noble white knight during all of this i will seriously be pissed. He has been far too much of a good guy in the show so far, this could be a prime moment to begin his downward spiral.

[Woman of War]

I think that Shae was indeed protective of Sansa but at the same time I got the impression that she knows more than she tells Tyrion, that she already has some information concerning LF and Sansa that Tyrion has not. Therefore her point is more urgent than she can make Tyrion understand, so indeed he underestimates Shae's concern here.

But while Shae is protective of Sansa she is as well very much aware of her personal claim on Tyrion. No, I do not interpret her jealousy on Ros as wounded soul, I interpret it as erotic banter. Shae knows very well that it is her who is in power over Tyrion in their relationship, she wants to make it crystal clear that she is the better fuck compared to Ros. And the scene very well presents Tyrion's clumsiness whe it comes to personal relationships: he loses his usual eloquence, makes feeble excuses and does not understand at all Shae's flirtatious manipulations, a legitimate game between lovers that shows that Tyrion is not only the weaker one here but outright dumb, contrasting this with his normal shrewdness.

And Tyrion seeing Sansa as great beauty, um, well, she is and even Varys, Loras or some random chambermaid could have made that remark, the character Sansa is meant to be beautiful, for all to see. I do not think that this suggests a deeper erotic interest so far and a little admiring is no sin, in the books Pod is smitten by Sansa as well.

I think it is only Shae's remark about the child Sansa, who physically so obviously is not a child, that makes Tyrion aware of the less abstract aspects of Sansa's beauty. And Shae may be jealous of Sansa's untouched beauty while feeling protective, this is not exclusive. But on the other hand she may be legitimately furious if men prefer virginal innocence and erotic cluelessness to the skills of a qualified prostitute or an experienced woman. I interpreted the remark about the child Sansa as not only protective but as well as Shae staking her claims: a child can never be as good in bed as I can, I'll show you (with that blowjob).

And Tyrion's relationship or marriage of Sansa is so much more than land grabbing: it is the desperate hopeless attempt to repeat the Tysha story, to find what can never be found again, another Tysha, completely delusional. How they will link Tyrion's non-rape of Sansa to the Tysha story I don't know since we never got the whole story in the beginning.

The way the series is going I do not see much whitewashing of Tyrion here so far, the impact may only come later than in the books, well, IF it is him who kills Shae, since Shae has feelings for him and for Sansa. So she may have a good reason to hate him in the end.

I like the character Shae even in the books, she is a selfmadewoman. But claiming that a prostitute is entitled to perjury since she has no link to her clients is discrimating sex workers as somewhat lesser beings for whom the normal rules of society are not applicable since they are immoral per se.

[Pellaeon]

I am starting to believe Shae will somehow push Sansa to go with LF maybe even hand her the hairnet, after all she always dresses Sansa.

Shae could be trying to get him back after he starts to be more involve with Sansa. I think the book plot about their marriage can be thrown away by now. IMO it already started with Backwater and their conversation she told him, not saying or mumble it in a close up, se will pray for him. This is clearly not the book plot.

So the show storyline, with an unlikeable LF, give Tyrion a ledgit (for the show) reason to kill her. We would have a similar outcome at least in positioning of characters, and a possible set up for their reunion.

[dttljs123]

Tyrion doesn't expect to marry Sansa stark, he only cares to protect Shae and keep her hidden from LORD TYWIN LANNISTER... WOOOO