[BOOK SPOILERS] Margaery and Joffrey scene

[franko99]

I have similar thoughts. They made him look weak and insecure instead of Big Warrior Fop. He's supposed to look just like young Robert, who was fierce, but just not be fierce. But Margaery saying all that to Joffrey I wouldn't really consider. It is an obvious lie since we saw Renly and Margaery try at it and she was the one that suggested to lie on her stomach and pretend she was Loras. She was just saying all this so Joffrey wouldn't get mad at her.

I did think it might've been a little wrong to mention making being gay punishable by death, but I think it also helped show just what a monster he is. I won't consider it a homophobic move by the writers. And since Margaery definitely knows about Loras' interests (show Margaery, I'm not sure if book Margaery does) it'll provide more willingness on her part to serve him some nice purple wine.

I actually took it the other way. Joffrey has been set up to be a sadist monster, and only a monster could think of killing someone just for who they love. A

lso let's not forget that sodomy was illegal in some countries in medieval Europe, Joffrey was acting just like a tyrant would do

[Ser Greguh]

I think Joffrey may honestly believe that Margaery may not know about Loras being Renly's lover. His contempt for women is severe enough that he actually may believe he's tricking her when saying that, and that's about consistent with Joffrey's level of cunning.

[pleonasm]

Natalie Dormer is a fine actress, I just wish they had cast a more age appropriate Margaery. Watching a thirtysomething year old actress manipulate a one dimensional sadist like Joffrey isn't exactly the most compelling material. There would be no way Book Margaery would ever be placed in a room alone with Joffrey.

I do wish Joffrey, since he is much older than he is in the books, would have actually develop in someway beyond the fact that he is an entitled, immature, sadist. Joffrey actually listening to Cersei and then trying to figure out Margaery's intentions could have been pretty interesting. Or have Margaery try and play him and realize this twisted entitled little shit can't be played. That said, that scene is probably coming down the road when its clear to Margaery that Joffrey is not really manageable and hence needs to be killed off.

[K26dp]

Dormer's Maergery Tyrell is the breakout character of the show for me. I liked her in S2, but she's been a lot of fun this season.

[Uncia]

"I do wish Joffrey, since he is much older than he is in the books, would have actually develop in someway beyond the fact that he is an entitled, immature, sadist."

Even if he turned fifty, he would still be an entitled, immature, sadist.

"Joffrey actually listening to Cersei "

I know it's fantasy, but a teenager (with power) listening nicely to his mother would be surreal. Totally fake.

[zaphodbrx]

I have to say that even though I read the books I was quite afraid for Margery when she was alone in the room with that deranged crossbow wielding lunatic.

Remember what happened the last time women tried to seduce him?

[K26dp]

I have to say that even though I read the books I was quite afraid for Margery when she was alone in the room with that deranged crossbow wielding lunatic.

Remember what happened the last time women tried to seduce him?

Clearly the scene was set up for the audience to recall that scene. The fact that Maergery didn't make any real overt sexual advances was the difference I think. They even made a point of showing her hand near his on the crossbow, but not taking the liberty of actually touching him.

I think she correctly saw that anything like that is going to have to be on his terms only.

[Lux in Tenebris]

I can't help thinking that Renly's character has been pretty comprehensively assasinated in the series.

from casting to death they messed it up, and now they are stomping on the grave. Too bad, he was a great book character.

[siberia82]

Since Joffrey knows that Renly is a “degenerate”, then surely he is aware that Loras is one, too. (As depicted on the show, the rumours surrounding the former Lord of Storm’s End and the Knight of Flowers are fairly rampant.) When Joff tells Margaery that he plans to execute all homosexuals, was he also trying to test her loyalty towards him (and not just expressing his disgust towards gay men)? By subtly threatening that he would kill Loras for his “perversions,” he may have been curious as to how Margaery would react. At least to me, that would make his character even more twisted than if you take his comment simply at face value.

Considering how homophobic Joffrey is on the show (I don’t recall his attitude being this extreme in the novels), it surprises me that he hasn’t made any derogatory remarks about Loras’ (or Renly’s) sexuality during the dinner scene in the last episode. It just seems like the kind of thing he would enjoy doing (or perhaps he has enough brain to realize that Loras would probably murder him for the insult).

[JonCon's Red Beard]

Gleeson has been so far quite superb on his role, and I think Joffrey is one of the few characters whose adaptation I dare to say is even better than the books. A Joff's pov could have been interesting, and this is the closest thing we're having.

Joffery's mood swings, from dangerously inquisitive, to momentarily gallant and manly, to chillingly bloodthirsty, were absolutely NAILED by Jack Glesson, I remain a huge fan.

Agree and I'm mad that he's not more featured in the show promos: he deserves it. I really hope this time he's not ignored for important awards, as he's having very important and dramatic scenes coming soon

and this might be his last season.

Margery has you fooled the way she has Joffrey fooled. She was rewriting history to get on her king's good side. In reality, she definitely suggested "turning over and pretending" she was Loras for Renly in bed. But I don't think Margery is going to mention that little detail to Joffrey, given that he seems to want to punish gay people--including her beloved brother--with execution.

I don't think this would affect Loras because there is no actual evidence that Loras was Renly's lover: Joffrey was just teasing her and proving whether she's a softly like Sansa or she wouldn't mind if he orders to execute her brother. Yes, I think Joffrey knows about it, everybody knows but can be proved? Tywin wouldn't allow the Lannisters accuse the Tyrell's son so casually after they just saved their butts. Whatsoever, she could be punished by the fact she's lying about being innocent and virginal, which is something Loras assured in front of the King and the whole court she was but we know she isn't. This is something I don't like that much about showMargaery, as the books are never clear whether she's truly innocent or she's just pretending: showMargaery is definitely more cunning about sex and seduction that bookMarg and the whole ambivalence about her is lost.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

Considering how homophobic Joffrey is on the show (I don’t recall his attitude being this extreme in the novels), it surprises me that he hasn’t made any derogatory remarks about Loras’ (or Renly’s) sexuality during the dinner scene in the last episode. It just seems like the kind of thing he would enjoy doing (or perhaps he has enough brain to realize that Loras would probably murder him for the insult).

He isn't much more homophobiic than most characters would be in a pseudo-medieval setting. He just said that to test Maergary's loyalty.

[Mladen]

Since Joffrey knows that Renly is a “degenerate”, then surely he is aware that Loras is one, too. (As depicted on the show, the rumours surrounding the former Lord of Storm’s End and the Knight of Flowers are fairly rampant.) When Joff tells Margaery that he plans to execute all homosexuals, was he also trying to test her loyalty towards him (and not just expressing his disgust towards gay men)? By subtly threatening that he would kill Loras for his “perversions,” he may have been curious as to how Margaery would react. At least to me, that would make his character even more twisted than if you take his comment simply at face value.

I would see this scene also as an intro to, as some fans predicted, Sansa/Loras wedding plans. Since Loras is still not in Kingsguard, and Sansa is free to marry, as Tyrion noted, and when you add Joffrey`s homophobia to that, I can easily see Margaery and QOT organizing these wedding plans to protect Loras from Joffrey.

[SeanF]

Most characters who know about Renly and Loras joke contemptuously about them, rather than suggesting that they're "degenerates" who deserve death.

I'm not sure if even Joffrey really thinks that. I speculate (not having seen the Episode) that he takes Margaery's claim that Renly only wanted to bugger her at face value, and thinks this is a way of impressing her.

[anizzle]

Another thing I loved about this scene is that Marg is setting her self with Joffrey to not just be the person who will let him do whatever he wants, jerkin' it to murder and whatever, but to be perceived by Joffrey as the only one who understands him and his wants, so he can be manipulated more greater ease.

[Titan]

I hated it. It was character assassination and it wasn't even in the books.

Just because a scene is not in the "holy scripture" of GRRM does not make it character assassination. Far from it. This scene fits very well with what we know from the books.

Don't the writers know that they can't just write fake things in it looked really stupid and I don't know what the point of that scene was.

:lmao:

[JonCon's Red Beard]

He isn't much more homophobiic than most characters would be in a pseudo-medieval setting. He just said that to test Maergary's loyalty.

I don't think "homophobia" is even the right word to use in this situation, as in their world, same sex relationships aren't "normal" nor accepted as in mostly cultures nowadays. Actually, being ok with it would be the oddity.

[Jon Mark Selmy]

I don't think "homophobia" is even the right word to use in this situation, as in their world, same sex relationships aren't "normal" nor accepted as in mostly cultures nowadays. Actually, being ok with it would be the oddity.

Unfortunately, same sex relationships aren't seen as normal nor accepted in most cultures nowadays. It's not even legal for them to marry in most of the Western World, let alone the east. But yeah, Middle Ages were much worse. Also, it's homophobia, wheter the rest of the population agrees with it or not.

[Ser Greguh]

I don't think "homophobia" is even the right word to use in this situation, as in their world, same sex relationships aren't "normal" nor accepted as in mostly cultures nowadays. Actually, being ok with it would be the oddity.

Depends on the medieval setting. In some locations / timeframes, a prediliction toward homosexual affairs, particularly among the nobility, was viewed as more of a personal quirk or vice than a punishable-by-death offense. In others, it was viewed as much worse. Westeros appears to view it closer to the former; Renly and Loras's affair, while common knowledge, appears to be seen by most as fodder for jokes and innuendo, but without much in the way of consequences beyond that. Loras is still revered for his abilities as a jouster, and Renly is crowned king and amasses the largest army of any of the five kings. Joffrey's proposed law would very much be an outlier. Even Stannis doesn't go anywhere near that far, and Stannis is prudish to the extreme.

"Homophobia" is still probably the wrong word, though. Joffrey wanting to put homosexuals to death is, oddly, not particularly indicative of particular hatred toward them. He just doesn't need much of an excuse to have people killed.

[hazlnut]

I think this is leading to a scene in which Joffrey achieves sexual climax from watching Margaery kill or harms someone, possibly one of the orphans.

Depending on how dark they want to go with Margaery, she may be portrayed as indifferent to the victim's suffering, or later, away from Joffrey, sickened by her actions.

Children and the protection of children is a major theme in series and the books. If they intend to build Margaery as a more sinister version of Cersei (hard to imagine such a thing, I know) but this could be a way to achieve the ultimate bad queen--caring for Orphans in public, torturing them in private.

[Ser Drizztos]

Joffrey seemed rather awkward when he was contemplating Renly's perversion and talking about putting other deviants to death. Sort of like he was painfully aware of his own twisted nature perhaps? It was hard to read, in a "what's going on in his head right now?" kind of way. Really good acting.