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Risto

[BOOK SPOILERS] Margaery and Joffrey scene

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I think the scene was amazingly well played out, personally. Margaery's character taking on some of the Queen of Thorn's aspects between the two makes her a far better character and doesn't harm the Queens of Thorns' character any so far, if you ask me. It was highly entertaining watching her subtle manipulations of Joffrey -- the fact that some people in the audience took her words at face value instead of simply as a means to play Joffrey for a puppet are testament that it was a solid performance.

and goodness her allusion to Joffrey enjoying watching her murder someone while staring right at him in the mirror? Golden.

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I don't think that it could be clearer that Margaery is playing up a role that is calculated to get into Joffrey's good graces and that paints her as a potential accomplice, which is far preferable to being what Sansa was, a victim. She's playing him. There's more than a hint of direct attempted seduction in the scene, but Joffrey doesn't bite (he's completely uninterested in sex for its own sake) and so she adjusts.

It's a particular aspect of her character that the writers are obviously pushing very hard. She's fearless, and draws that fearlessness from a confidence in her ability to project whatever her audience wants to see. That was as true with the orphanage scene as it was with her scene with Joffrey. Joffrey was petrified of getting out of his palanquin in Flea Bottom, just as Sansa was petrified of being around Joffrey. Margaery can do either, and so far hasn't blinked. She's a player for real.

I never quite "got" Margaery in the books, and thought of her more as a non-entity. I think they've made it clear that she's her grandmother's daughter, so to speak, and that makes her a much more interesting character. I'll take as many Joffrey/Margaery/QoT scenes as I can get, in the same way I liked the Tywin/Arya scenes even though they weren't in the books.

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I never quite "got" Margaery in the books, and thought of her more as a non-entity. I think they've made it clear that she's her grandmother's daughter, so to speak, and that makes her a much more interesting character. I'll take as many Joffrey/Margaery/QoT scenes as I can get, in the same way I liked the Tywin/Arya scenes even though they weren't in the books.

It's a pity that Margaery isn't a Point of View in Feast. My view is that she is ruthlessly ambitious - as indeed, the series portrays her,

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How did the scene play out in the books btw.? Did Margery play him just the same, or was it portrayed even better? Or did the QoT play a bigger role instead?

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How did the scene play out in the books btw.? Did Margery play him just the same, or was it portrayed even better? Or did the QoT play a bigger role instead?

Neither Margaery nor Joffrey is a POV in the books, so we see no interaction between them before the wedding.

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The thing I found very interesting is that with what is going on (maybe specifically in the US) regarding the status of homosexuality, marriage etc that they would be that blatant about his feelings on it. I get it's fiction, but all that needs to happen is have that scene be taken out of the context and there is a shitstorm a brewing.

I get completely WHY they did it - for the Tyrells it is just another reason to get rid of him, but from a real world perception stand point they could have done that differently.

In the same episode we have Joffrey's father say:

I don't blame him[Renly]or you[brienne], no one gets to choose who we love.

In one swoop Jaime just justified loving "anyone" they become attracted to in the same episode a king says it should be punishable by death.

You can't take one characters words and generalize them to the whole series.

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Neither Margaery nor Joffrey is a POV in the books, so we see no interaction between them before the wedding.

Then what do we see of their motivations? Is there scheming between QoT/Marge, or nothing at all and what happens to Joffrey comes as a surprise?

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Then what do we see of their motivations? Is there scheming between QoT/Marge, or nothing at all and what happens to Joffrey comes as a surprise?

What happened to Joffrey came by surprise, but LF cleared it out when he talked to Sansa. And motivation is pretty clear. They have met Joffrey and thought it wouldn`t work.

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Then what do we see of their motivations? Is there scheming between QoT/Marge, or nothing at all and what happens to Joffrey comes as a surprise?

There's a lunch party involving Margaery, Sansa, and Q o T, which will give you quite a big clue as to what the first and last think about Joffrey. Further dialogue between the Q o T and Sansa, and Littlefinger and Sansa, then provides you with more information.

Joffrey's interactions with Sansa show us his sadistic nature.

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I hated it. It was character assassination and it wasn't even in the books. Don't the writers know that they can't just write fake things in it looked really stupid and I don't know what the point of that scene was.

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Then what do we see of their motivations? Is there scheming between QoT/Marge, or nothing at all and what happens to Joffrey comes as a surprise?

Not surprisingly, the books are somewhat more subtle about this. The lunch scene was very similar to the book, and the QoT's personality is very accurate, as well as what she says. But since the only POV characters in King's Landing at this point in A Storm of Swords are Tyrion and Sansa, we don't get to see the inside workings and plots of the Tyrells like we do with the Lannisters, for example. It's all seen through the eyes of Sansa and sometimes Tyrion, though he only has one short conversation with Olenna if I remember correctly.

Unfortunately thus far in the series we haven't had any Tyrell POVs.

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No, im pretty sure she said that it was Renly who had suggested the backdoor idea once when he was very drunk, and she hinted that she took it as a sign of him being gay.

She knows he is gay, due to her in the last season saying that she would let her brother get him hot and bothered and she would come in at the end. It is a testament to her desire to be The Queen.

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I can't help thinking that Renly's character has been pretty comprehensively assasinated in the series.

I have similar thoughts. They made him look weak and insecure instead of Big Warrior Fop. He's supposed to look just like young Robert, who was fierce, but just not be fierce. But Margaery saying all that to Joffrey I wouldn't really consider. It is an obvious lie since we saw Renly and Margaery try at it and she was the one that suggested to lie on her stomach and pretend she was Loras. She was just saying all this so Joffrey wouldn't get mad at her.

I did think it might've been a little wrong to mention making being gay punishable by death, but I think it also helped show just what a monster he is. I won't consider it a homophobic move by the writers. And since Margaery definitely knows about Loras' interests (show Margaery, I'm not sure if book Margaery does) it'll provide more willingness on her part to serve him some nice purple wine.

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I hated it. It was character assassination and it wasn't even in the books. Don't the writers know that they can't just write fake things in it looked really stupid and I don't know what the point of that scene was.

To show how manipulative the Tyrels truly are. It makes them all the more interesting as a house and as a player in the GoT because on the outside they have that happy, generous appearance, but at their heart (which seems to be the QoT) they are deviously ruthless.

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I don't always agree with the showrunners' choices in deviating from 'scripture,' but in my opinion their handling of Margaery's calculated political machinations has been handled masterfully through these first two episodes. Lots of foreshadowing both in this scene and in the QoT scene (particularly the look exchanged by Margaery and Olenna when Sansa describes Joff as a monster). Extremely well-played arc thus far, and in my opinion more interesting than what we're shown in the book.

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I hated it. It was character assassination and it wasn't even in the books. Don't the writers know that they can't just write fake things in it looked really stupid and I don't know what the point of that scene was.

How was it character assassination? We know how political savvy Margaery is in the books, or at least that its hinted, especially considering her grandmother. We know from the books Joffrey is a very cruel boy. He is aged up in the show. Could you imagine the boy from the books being nearly an adult instead of a twelve year old? I thought the scene was good for both characters. Shows the versatility of the actor and actress too. I'm loving Margaery this season.

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I never quite "got" Margaery in the books, and thought of her more as a non-entity. I think they've made it clear that she's her grandmother's daughter, so to speak, and that makes her a much more interesting character. I'll take as many Joffrey/Margaery/QoT scenes as I can get, in the same way I liked the Tywin/Arya scenes even though they weren't in the books.

Yeah, those scenes in particular have been more of a writers' extrapolation rather than invention. The Margaery they have presented in the series so far is a bit different from how she's portrayed in the books, but how she's portrayed in the books is presented largely through the lens of highly subjective POV characters. Sansa thinks very highly of her and sees her as a true friend, though she does note that she seemed more alert and worldly than her handmaidens. Tyrion, the only other major POV in King's Landing in Book 3, doesn't think much of her at all. Her charity and popularity with the commoners certainly comes through, but any pre-wedding interaction she had with Joffrey was not revealed. What David & Dan have come up with is not far off from what a lot of fan consensus regarding what her true nature must be; a highly intelligent player and very much her grandmother's protege, whose primary talent is acting. This is made more clear in the books in Book 4, where she plays Cersei as thoroughly and easily as the show has her playing Joffrey here.

As far as Renly's character, it hasn't been changed at all with this scene. With regard to the "backdoor incident", Margaery was lying. With Renly she was frank and overtly not concerned with decorum in private, to the point where she was (to Renly's shock) suggesting that they have a threesome involving her brother, if that's what it took to get him started. It's highly unlikely that she would have turned down an offer for any form of intercourse with Renly. But with Joffrey, the speed and ease with which she throws Renly under the bus is remarkable. She invents a scene that plays up both her "innocence" and Renly's "perversion", knowing full well that it will play to Joffrey's inclinations and worm her way into his good graces, which of course is her intent from the start.

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I hated it. It was character assassination and it wasn't even in the books. Don't the writers know that they can't just write fake things in it looked really stupid and I don't know what the point of that scene was.

If this is sarcasm, great job. :bowdown:

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I can't help thinking that Renly's character has been pretty comprehensively assasinated in the series.

I don't like that they only point Renly's sexuality all the time in a mean way or in a joke. I'm fine with the fact that the series are only based in the books, I mean the writers have total freedom as GRRM stated many times, but they write about Renly as he wasn't anything more than the gay man that loved Loras, that's bothers me.

For a while I wondered if Joffrey was a "degenerate" because he seemed uninterested in Sansa and other women.

But I liked that episode 2 revealed his madness as an attraction to violence. Margaery appeals to him just by talking about killing. The dialogue while they are looking into the mirror is sinister.

Well I never thought that Joffrey didn't like women, but always thought that he was totally twisted because of his attraction to violence and sadism. I think that this was already showed in season two, when he tortures a prostitute, so it was clear to me. However what I liked about the scene is that after knowing that he bis a "monster" by Sansa, Mag really uses well the information and plays him in this scene, getting more knowledge about who Joffrey really is.

The end of the scene was almost creepy, when they faced the mirror. Despite the fact that I don't like Natalie Dormer too much as Mag - maybe because of her previous roles in other series and because she is very different from the Mag that I pictured in my head while reading the books, but don't get me wrong, it's not that I don't like the actress, I don't like the casting of her for this particular character - the scene was great. Also, as usual, Jack Gleeson is so perfect that he scares me lol I mean he managed to make a Joffrey that I hate more than the one from the books for his awesome performance.

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