[BOOK SPOILERS] Margaery and Joffrey scene

[Kienn]

You seriously misinterpreted that scene. She was speaking of what Renly wanted from her. Re-watch it.

Or you did... and you should? I can see why people think of it differently, but if you can't see where my opinion is from you seriously missed something important.

[teemo]

Which one is it?? Because I'm confused.

[hollowcrown]

This scene kind made me feel sorry for Joffrey.

He's turned on by violence. He's clearly a lonely psychopath and when he was like "do you feel it too?" to Margaery I felt sort of sorry for him.

That's a very interesting theory---I found it a bit odd that TV!Olenna didn't mention anything about a betrothal, but the writers are probably saving this scene for a future episode. Marrying Loras to Sansa in this case is not just about the Tyrells having a potential claim to the North, but it's also a way to protect Loras should Joffrey begin his extermination of "degenerates." As much as Loras dislikes the idea of being married to a woman, this possible threat on his life will make it easier for Olenna and Margaery to convince him that he has to marry Sansa.

I've just realized that there seems to be more animosity between Loras and Joffrey on the show than in the novels. We don't have the PoV for either Loras or Joff in ASoIaF, but outwardly at least, there didn't seem to be any obvious hate between the two characters. In the TV series, however, Loras called Joffrey a "monster" in Season 1, and in the Season 2 finale, Loras' body language couldn't conceal how disgusted he was at having to bend the knee to the boy-king. When I first watched the moment where Joffrey yells "No flowers!" to the tailor, I suspected that it might be a clue that he despised the Knight of Flowers for not being "manly" enough. His scene with Margaery then confirmed my belief (and it even went beyond my expectations).

Is it any wonder that TV!Loras is not part of Joff's Kingsguard? It's not just because the writers wanted to make him available for marriage; Loras on the show would never volunteer to be Joffrey's bodyguard, and Joff himself wouldn't want a "deviant" to don the white cloak.

Great call. I imagine the Loras/Sansa bethrothal might happen in another episode, mainly to give the Queen of Thorns a bit more screen time and stuff to do in the series.

But then obviously Tywin will put a spanner in the works and there will be the shotgun wedding to Tyrion, maybe after Tywin finds out what Olenna is planning.

[NedStark2013]

I always did wonder if Jon Snow lets say becomes king. I am wondering would GRRM make him offer his a hand so she could stay Queen. I think Margeary would make a better Queen then Cersei easily.

[StarkDragon]

It was really awkward when Margaery implied Joffrey could do it in her bum if he wanted cause he's king.

You seriously misinterpreted that scene. She was speaking of what Renly wanted from her. Re-watch it.

Or you did... and you should? I can see why people think of it differently, but if you can't see where my opinion is from you seriously missed something important.

I'm sorry, I saw the episode as well, and don't see where she's implying "Joffrey could do it in her bum if he wanted cause he's king."

I did see her moving her fingers toward his hand on the crossbow scene, and that she states a wife's job is to giver her husband children, but that's about it. Since we both missed it, could you be so kind as to elaborate how you were able to understand this important portion of the scene?

[teemo]

I thought the bum thing just came up because Renly is gay. I didn't think it meant she was offering up HER bum for Joff. lol.

[Aripyanfar]

There was all sorts of wonderful about that scene. It was the best and subtlest manipulation that Margaery has pulled off to date in the series. The scriptwriters, cinematographers and the two actors were just totally superb all around. Margaery went from "I'm a harmless, dutiful, obedient little girl" to "If you let me I could be a monster just like you and we can be monsters together" in a single scene. Gleeson's Joff was so volatile, he was "being good" but leaking round the edges with the pressure of restraining himself. Dormer's Margaery advanced and retreated and retreated and advanced exactly according to Joffrey's responses.

[Loras]

There was all sorts of wonderful about that scene. It was the best and subtlest manipulation that Margaery has pulled off to date in the series. The scriptwriters, cinematographers and the two actors were just totally superb all around. Margaery went from "I'm a harmless, dutiful, obedient little girl" to "If you let me I could be a monster just like you and we can be monsters together" in a single scene. Gleeson's Joff was so volatile, he was "being good" but leaking round the edges with the pressure of restraining himself. Dormer's Margaery advanced and retreated and retreated and advanced exactly according to Joffrey's responses.

I absolutely agree with everything that you have said here. Though I could have done without the final part where they are looking in the mirror together.

[King of the Road]

Yeah I thought exactly the same when I watched it. I always suspected that Margaery was

the one who put the poison in Joffrey's cup

and that looked to be a wonderful foreshadowing.

I'm really impressed with TV Margaery, she's a wonderful character, brilliantly written and acted. Never thought I'd be eagerly awaiting more scenes from the Tyrells but Natalie Dormer and Diana Rigg have changed that.

[SerMixalot]

I thought the bum thing just came up because Renly is gay. I didn't think it meant she was offering up HER bum for Joff. lol.

ummm apparently this forum has found the end point of discussions on GoT when there is a debate over whether Margarey offered Joffrey her bum

[SerMixalot]

I thought it interesting that M used the same tact with J as she did with Renly "you are the king, you can do anything you want" appealing to their respective immature, narcissistic sides. The perfect and parrallel flaws in J and R (one cruel one with an inflated ego). Compare that to how Davos motivates Stannis-appealing to his honor-"a king should worry about doing right by his people instead of his people doing right by him"

[NedStark2013]

I am wondering if She deep down is really females are better then men thinking and she kinda is playing JOffrey to his own end because she has learned from Sansa how much he likes to abuse and be cruel to women. I think Margaery and her Grandmother actually were sencer about Sansa could trust them. I think the that family really serve Targs reall for did before the rebellion but I can see Margaeory wanting to have power and feels deserves something if Joffrey and Renly can have power as Kings.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Or you did... and you should? I can see why people think of it differently, but if you can't see where my opinion is from you seriously missed something important.

I didn't miss anything. She was clearly making the point to Joffrey that she was still a maid because Renly was gay.

[boojam]

First, with appologies to all TV fans who hadn`t read the books, I have to advise you to skip this topic in order not to reveal some spoilers.

Now, this scene, was in my opinion, very well executed. It reminded us what Margaery wants and what she`ll get. But then Joffrey put that crossbow into her hands and started conversation:

Joffrey: Could you kill something?

Margaery: I don`t know, Your Grace. Do you think I could?

Joffrey: Yes

Margaery: Would you like to watch me?

Joffrey: Yes

In my opinion, this scene wonderfully forshadows one event

Purple wedding and Tyrell`s involvement in it

So, what do you think? Has this scene, beside Margaery`s political smartness, showed us something more? Has the writers hinted us future events I was talking about? And was this scene meant for book readers for full understanding?

It's the first thing I noticed.

What about Shae? Shae's a 'mysterious find!?' by Bronn (who has never reveled where he came from) or much of anything about himself, except for ambiguous events in his childhood, always dodging the final question.

Tyrion telling Shae she can't be seen coming into his quarters , she ignores him.

In just who's employ is she? If you catch my drift.

[Mladen]

It's the first thing I noticed.

What about Shae? Shae's a 'mysterious find!?' by Bronn (who has never reveled where he came from) or much of anything about himself, except for ambiguous events in his childhood, always dodging the final question.

Tyrion telling Shae she can't be seen coming into his quarters , she ignores him.

In just who's employ is she? If you catch my drift.

Well, when she is concerned, I don`t think that even books will give us some great answer, for beside Bronn and Tyrion, all that participated in it are dead. But, I believe that Tywin knowing Tyrion has brought her and the fact he made a threat, I would assume that their relationship lasted for so long. Perhaps even from the very beginning Tyrion met her

[Envie]

Yeah, those scenes in particular have been more of a writers' extrapolation rather than invention. The Margaery they have presented in the series so far is a bit different from how she's portrayed in the books, but how she's portrayed in the books is presented largely through the lens of highly subjective POV characters. Sansa thinks very highly of her and sees her as a true friend, though she does note that she seemed more alert and worldly than her handmaidens. Tyrion, the only other major POV in King's Landing in Book 3, doesn't think much of her at all. Her charity and popularity with the commoners certainly comes through, but any pre-wedding interaction she had with Joffrey was not revealed. What David & Dan have come up with is not far off from what a lot of fan consensus regarding what her true nature must be; a highly intelligent player and very much her grandmother's protege, whose primary talent is acting. This is made more clear in the books in Book 4, where she plays Cersei as thoroughly and easily as the show has her playing Joffrey here.

As far as Renly's character, it hasn't been changed at all with this scene. With regard to the "backdoor incident", Margaery was lying. With Renly she was frank and overtly not concerned with decorum in private, to the point where she was (to Renly's shock) suggesting that they have a threesome involving her brother, if that's what it took to get him started. It's highly unlikely that she would have turned down an offer for any form of intercourse with Renly. But with Joffrey, the speed and ease with which she throws Renly under the bus is remarkable. She invents a scene that plays up both her "innocence" and Renly's "perversion", knowing full well that it will play to Joffrey's inclinations and worm her way into his good graces, which of course is her intent from the start.

I really appreciated your views on this and wanted to thank you for such a great explanation. Since we have no POV chapters for Margaery or Joffrey in the books, it's somewhat easy to argue their motivations and personalities for the series. I think the creators have done a spectacular job of bringing both characters to life (as well as the fine acting skills of the actors portraying them). I appreciate these characters a lot more in the HBO series because I'm now seeing them from a different perspective that better displays some terrific motivation exposition for the Tyrells and Lannisters both.

Also, I agree with you completely about the sex / Renly scene. I could tell immediately she was playing every card possible to win Joffrey's favor, even lying about Renly straight up while still alluding to just enough of the truth to show her innocence. This was masterfully well played and Joffrey ate it up, all of it, including the 'degenerate' remarks, Margaery's willingness to back his sadistic pleasures as well as any laws he would pass to kill said degenerates even if it includes her own brother was fairly obvious, even to non-book readers as just manipulative talk.

Once Margaery learned Joffrey's true nature, thanks to confessions from Sansa, it was simple for her (with Grandma's coaching) to use that exact thing as a tool. And Joffrey is a very easily used tool.

[Envie]

Also, in reading the pages of analysis about Joffrey's particular sadistic tendencies, I think the impact of the end scene where he's holding the cross-bow with Margaery was very powerful and ominous (as intended) but may have distracted some viewers from the way the scene opened.

Do not forget that when Margaery first walked into the room, she was nervous and Joffrey quickly pinned her to the corner by asking outright what her loyalty / respect was for a 'dead man' (Renly) who was a traitor. He boldly asked if it had been 'no place for a woman' at the bedside of a known traitor and then point blank asks why she failed to get pregnant by Renly. Remember that? I think this was possibly Joffrey's carefully veiled threat of knowledge of Renly's (and therefore Loras too) true inclinations. The look on Gleason's face at that moment was really scary and well acted. Margaery falters for the briefest moment before going onward to parry the remark and recover by admitting Renly's particular perversions did not make him a suitable bed partner for 'making children' together and she then gave a perfect confession which won Joffrey over to her side. He was clearly testing her. Show Joffrey is older and much more cunning than book Joffrey. I love him!

[teemo]

Envie, you should write a dissertation on this scene..

[Envie]

Yay, I just did!

The interwebs are difficult for reading sarcasm but since you said dissertation I have to suspect you were being sarcastic. Fortunately I'm able to remain glib in text because I will insert the obligatory smiley. :)

[teemo]

no, I was being serious! lol. you are giving incredibly insightful views on this scene.