[Book Spoilers] If Joffrey is already being fitted for wedding clothes...

[RememberTheNorth]

Of the few forums I've posted on so far this has definitely been the most...vivacious...

What I like about this topic is it is not centered around something totally ambiguous. Some of us will be proved right or wrong in episode 10 and I definitely can't wait to see who that is.The wedding will either happen or it will not.

Good luck to all of you on both sides. We clearly aren't gonna convince each other of anything other than the fact that the PW will eventually...happen.

I just wish that scene where Marge more or less calls Cersei a bitch in the Tower after she's accused would come already. Cersei is nothing but the Queen of Throwing Shade. We'll see how much "fabric" she needs when she takes her walk of shame.

[Ser Pounce FTW]

I expected the PW to take place next season but having read that the actor wants to stop acting and pursue his academics full time, I think it might be the last thing we see. I think that might be a good place to end it since people will be down about the RW. Seeing Joffrey finally get what he deserves could lift spirits with viewers.

Ok. How weird is it to suggest someone's murder might lift spirits?

[LordStoneheart]

I just realized that Margaery wears skin showing dresses because she's from Highgarden, and used to warm climates. Cercei should know that, but I suppose she needs something to criticize her on.

[SerMixalot]

FWIW every post I read has me agreeing with each side of the argument, though I will say that in one of the previews, there is a shot of Cersei watching J and M leave what I presume is Baelor's Sept, now that could be after T and S wedding, but could be otherwise, cant tell if J is wearing the same clothes as when he brings Sansa into the Sept.

[SerMixalot]

hmmmmmm, in the scene bringing Sansa in he is wearing a loosefitting cape while leaving he is wearing something more form fitting. hmmmmmmmmmmmm 2 weddings at the Sept?????

he is CLEARLY wearing a different outfit walking in with Sansa and leaving with Margaery, no cape at all. 2 visits to the Sept???????//

[The Wrong Tree]

I would just like to say that I feel it is ridiculous to use book chronology as a reference for tv chronology. For example: the TV-Reeds, who are major characters, showed up much later than they did in the books. So to say that there was x amount of time between two events in the book and use that as a valid reason for why they won't happen in the series is illogical. The show deviates quite a bit from the books.

Also, I rather feel that since Mace Tyrell is not the schemer in the Tyrell family, in both book and show, he will not be given as much precedence as people think. Especially since it's already been estabilished that QoT is the game-player in the show. Thus, his "official" appearance is unnecessary at this point.

(just for fun) I would love if they had both weddings in one episode. They show how everything is going well in both weddings, then suddenly the Tully-Frey wedding gets bloody which is then contrasted with the celebration shots of Joff and Marg. Then, after you see Cat's bloody last moments you see the celebration at KL and suddenly, as all the non-book readers are screaming at their televisions about how unfair and cruel the world is... they see Joff clawing at his neck! Boom! End of Episode!! This is what I want, but even if PW is in this season, I doubt that they'll do it my way D:

[King Cheops]

Another point...I very highly doubt at this point that Tyrion will kill Shae, or that she will be the one to betray him. This is looking more and more like Ros at this point. TV Shae is extremely different than the Shae in the books, and to be honest Ros at this point is rivaling Varys in terms of mystery and the ambiguity of her true intentions in my opinion. It will be interesting.

I'm fairly interested in this theory. Care to share how you think this may go down? It would be an interesting twist.

[Moët]

Anyway, why do you want the PW in Season 3?

Like I and many have said repeatedly in this thread - It's Joffrey's arc, and the momentum of the season, which would be lost moving to the first half of S4: But lotun says best:

Too many issues with having the PW in Season 4 (let's say episode 3):

- Jaime has nothing to do from around Episode 7 Seaon 3 to Episode 3 of Season 4 in the PW

- The stories of all the Tyrells and Lannisters in KL in Season 3 have no climax.

- The stories of all the Tyrells and Lannisters in KL in Season 3 have no forward momentum as they enter Season 4. They have not moved forward, they are still carrying out marriage preparations, they are still in effectively the same position as they were at the end of Season 3.

- The story of Tyrion and Sansa climax too soon during Season 3. If we treat their wedding as the climax of their Season 3 storyline, then it is an unsatisfactory climax, as it becomes void when the PW comes in the middle of Season 4.

- The stories of ALL tyrells and Lannisters (including Tyrion, and Sansa as a Stark), have a weird plot movement in season 4. They start with no forward momentum and at the same place as at the end of Season 3 when Season 4 starts, they have a very early climax by say episode 3, they have a very rapid change of scenery in terms of their position in the plot in the middle of the season, and another climax and another rapid change at the end of the season.

- Minor plot turns introduced in Season 3 are unresolved (i.e. Littlefinger tells Sansa he wants to take her away; Margaery, Joeffrey and Cercei prepare for a wedding; the Queen of Thorns and Margaery hint that they have a plot to deal with Joffrey; Jaime is on a journey to KL but hasn't yet arrived there as he can only do so after the PW). In TV you have large show wide arcs that take place throughout the seasons, and you have smaller season-wide arcs that spun an entire season (examples of season wide arcs in previous seasons: Jon Snow travels with Qhorin Halfhand until he is forced to kill him to infiltrate the wildlings; Daenerys travels to Qarth and has her dragon's stolen there; Tyrion is captured by Catelyn Stark and has to figure out how to escape and travel all the way back to King's Landing; Jaime is imprisoned by Robb and has to find a way to start his escape; Theon plots to capture Winterfell and eventually fails; Arya Stark is imprisoned in Harrengall and has to arrange her escape). All the season wide arcs listed here have proper and neat beginnings, build-ups, climaxes, and ends, that span an entire season. You can't start a minor arc at the start of a season, leave it hanging mid-way by the end of the season, tell the audience to wait and remember everything that happened for a year, and then end that arc a third of the way into the next season. That's bad storytelling, and it leaves the audience unfulfilled. The show can't introduce Joff's wedding, Sansa's escape attempt, Marg's and the QOT's plots, and then tells the audience 'Well we've been hinting at all these things for a season, but we'll just leave them hanging, try and remember what happened for a year and check back next season where we'll close these arcs quickly in the first three episodes of the new season, and introduce you to new story arcs". Instead if the PW closes all these story arcs, it creates new story arcs that start neatly at the start of season 4 (Tyrion is imprisoned, and must face a trial and plan his escape; Jaime arrives in King's Landing and must decide between his sister and his brother; Oberyn arrives in King's Landing to renew Dorne's fealty to the crown, and must plot his revenge against the mountain and Tywin; Cercei and Margaery must fight for Tommen's affections; Sansa arrives in the Vale and must handle her aunt and Littlefinger).

- The PW loses its impact if its not paired with the RW. Pairing the two together at the same time or very near to each other, creates a theme and allows the viewer to contrast the two. Separating them by a year, and having them some 5 episodes apart will actually make the TV-only viewer feel that the show is getting unimaginative: the TV-only viewer will start thinking "A death at a wedding AGAIN? Can't the show think of something new, we've seen the same thing last year, are we expected to be surprised again?"

There are more than enough big events to fit into Season 4. TWO big battles (Meereen and the wall). One cool new character with a fully fleshed out story arc (Oberyn). A big trial by combat scene. The meeting of two of the major characters in the series (Jon and Stannis). A very emotional murder scene (Tyrion and Shae/Tywin). A road adventure with Arya and the Hound. Possibly the conclusion of Bran's storyline, assuming they push it forward from DwD. That's MORE than enough material for a season!!!

I agree with this.

*if you're Robb Stark I'll be Rickard Karstark :P

I was quoting Robb. I'm not Robb. I'm Tyene Sand. Or Janna Tyrell.

I would just like to say that I feel it is ridiculous to use book chronology as a reference for tv chronology. For example: the TV-Reeds, who are major characters, showed up much later than they did in the books. So to say that there was x amount of time between two events in the book and use that as a valid reason for why they won't happen in the series is illogical. The show deviates quite a bit from the books.

Also, I rather feel that since Mace Tyrell is not the schemer in the Tyrell family, in both book and show, he will not be given as much precedence as people think. Especially since it's already been estabilished that QoT is the game-player in the show. Thus, his "official" appearance is unnecessary at this point.

(just for fun) I would love if they had both weddings in one episode. They show how everything is going well in both weddings, then suddenly the Tully-Frey wedding gets bloody which is then contrasted with the celebration shots of Joff and Marg. Then, after you see Cat's bloody last moments you see the celebration at KL and suddenly, as all the non-book readers are screaming at their televisions about how unfair and cruel the world is... they see Joff clawing at his neck! Boom! End of Episode!! This is what I want, but even if PW is in this season, I doubt that they'll do it my way D:

While it would make for some amazing television, we'd lose two things that need to happen in the interim:

1. We learn Tywin's involvement in the RW.

2. Tyrion tells Sansa about it.

If they happen at the same time, we lose that. Otherwise, it would be pretty amazing.

EDIT - No real reason we can't find all that out after the PW.

[The Wrong Tree]

Like I and many have said repeatedly in this thread - It's Joffrey's arc, and the momentum of the season, which would be lost moving to the first half of S4: But lotun says best:

I agree with this.

I was quoting Robb. I'm not Robb. I'm Tyene Sand. Or Janna Tyrell.

While it would make for some amazing television, we'd lose two things that need to happen in the interim:

1. We learn Tywin's involvement in the RW.

2. Tyrion tells Sansa about it.

If they happen at the same time, we lose that. Otherwise, it would be pretty amazing.

EDIT - No real reason we can't find all that out after the PW.

Why does Tyrion have to be the one to tell Sansa about it? I know that it would greatly develop both characters and shape them closer to their book versions, but is it absolutely necessary for it to be Tyrion? But I agree that we have to find out about Tywin winning wars with ravens (I love that line: some wars are won with swords others with quills and ravens)

[Moët]

Why does Tyrion have to be the one to tell Sansa about it? I know that it would greatly develop both characters and shape them closer to their book versions, but is it absolutely necessary for it to be Tyrion? But I agree that we have to find out about Tywin winning wars with ravens (I love that line: some wars are won with swords others with quills and ravens)

You're right. LF could tell her.... on the boat. Or......?

[TheDarkOne]

Does it really make sense to have Tyrion and Sansa wedding, then the RW, then the PW all in the scope of 4 or so episodes?

[Iotun]

Does it really make sense to have Tyrion and Sansa wedding, then the RW, then the PW all in the scope of 4 or so episodes?

Yes. It gives a theme to the season. We had 3 weddings one after the other in the books and it worked. Since we HAVE to have 3 weddings, it makes sense to thematically group them together. Seperating the 2nd and 3rd wedding by a year will instead seem sloppy to viewers. As I said before: "A death at a wedding AGAIN? Can't the show think of something new, we've seen the same thing last year, are we expected to be surprised again?"

[SerArthurHeath]

Yes. It gives a theme to the season. We had 3 weddings one after the other in the books and it worked. Since we HAVE to have 3 weddings, it makes sense to thematically group them together. Seperating the 2nd and 3rd wedding by a year will instead seem sloppy to viewers. As I said before: "A death at a wedding AGAIN? Can't the show think of something new, we've seen the same thing last year, are we expected to be surprised again?"

Isn't thematic grouping of plot-lines in a season usually less heavy-handed than putting 3 of the same event, 2 with deaths in them based on the betrayal by the bride's family, right next to each other. That's about as unsubtle as any example I can think of in any season of any show I've watched

[Iotun]

Isn't thematic grouping of plot-lines in a season usually less heavy-handed than putting 3 of the same event, 2 with deaths in them based on the betrayal by the bride's family, right next to each other. That's about as unsubtle as any example I can think of in any season of any show I've watched

But that's a complain for the book writer, not the show runner. George wrote 3 weddings in the same book, and if you are like most readers, you've probably read through all 3 events in the span of a couple of days.

The complain that there are too many weddings is really a complain about the plot of the book. Whether we like it or not, there are '3 of the same event, 2 with deaths in them based on the betrayal by the bride's family' (by the way, its unlikely that in the TV show Robb's death will involve Talisa's family, so that will be less monotonous) and we have to go through them. Even if the thematic grouping is heavy-handed, that's the source material we have to deal with, so we might as well keep it heavy handed. If you push the 3rd wedding to the next season that doesn't eliminate the fact that you have yet another wedding, and another death in it, but instead of at least having some thematic wrapping of the events, TV viewers will just think the show is running out of ideas and recycling itself from season to season.

[Brewmaster]

The entire Kings Landing plot and Jamie Lannister's plot seems rushed. He's already captured?? Come on... He's not supposed to get to KL until AFTER the PW

Jaime gets captured and de-handed early in the book too. And that's with none of his road trip shown in the second book, unlike here where they showed some last season.

Jaime and Brienne spend quite a bit of book time at Harrenhall. He has a long ways to go to King's landing. He still needs to be chopped. Then patched up by Qyburn. Spends some time as a prisoner with Brienne. Talks with Roose. Then he's sent on his way, but Brienne remains a prisoner. Then he comes back for her.

Jaime still has a lot to do before he's even on the road to King's Landing.

[RememberTheNorth]

I'm fairly interested in this theory. Care to share how you think this may go down? It would be an interesting twist.

A lot of people I've talked to have read the books and watch the show generally agree that the "two Shaes" are very different. TV Shae is much kinder and more sympathetic that book one, in fact, if I'm not mistaken book Shae was generally not so much in the forefront and remained behind the scenes for much of the time. However, the HBO adaptation has included a lot of extra material (such as Shae being Sansa's handmaiden, a deviation from the books?--I may be wrong on that point, don't quote me on it--haven't read SoS in a while).

However, the fact that Shae cares so very much about Sansa is interesting in a lot of ways. Book Shae would have never shown such devotion, and, while GRRM likes to throw everything we hold for granted out the window, I don't think they would destroy the character arc that this character has been built up to by betraying Tyrion. The dock scene in the premiere was interesting as well. Clearly, Ros and Shae hold some sort of unseen rivalry that has not been fully realized yet (Why does Shae press Tyrion so when asking how many times he had sex with her? Why does she care so much if it was in the past and he says he's over her?) Another point--if Shae is so caring for Sansa that she would threaten to kill another maid before she told Cersei that Sansa had gotten her period, this gives Shae many honorable qualities in my eyes, although this could mean nothing at all.

The reason as to why Ros is in the adaption is a question no one can really answer yet. At first several people I know who watched GOT called her the "Miscellaneous whore" filing the places of many book whores. The season finale scene with Varys is unexplainable in a lot of ways as well--does he really want to simply know more about Littlefinger? Or is there an underlying motive there? Ros to me is appearing more sketchy by the minute, and is almost emulating Varys' mysterious behavior to some degree. We do not know her true motives just as we don't know Varys or Littlefinger's.

To be honest, I do not know yet how her part in Tyrion's downfall will unfold, because there is nothing in the books to reference besides the placement of book Shae. I just have this feeling that it's going to happen somehow. Varys, as we may know, is in all likelihood a Targaryen loyalist who would see anything to help Dany's return to the throne. Perhaps he has a part to play in Tyrion becoming a pariah in KL and moving on to meet up with Dany. I don't know. But what I do know is that Ros has much looser standards than other characters in the story. She is a whore, after all, although not with a heart of gold as Shae has. However, this creates another problem. What about the bed scene with Tywin? I do find it unlikely he would out of the blue sleep with Ros and that's how Tyrion kills her. This is messy and makes no sense at all to the viewers. I also found it painfully unrealistic in the books, although dramatic nonetheless. What would be entertaining is to have Ros payed by Cersei or whoever to lie at the trial (actually she wouldn't even have to "lie," she has slept with Tyrion on more than one occasion), thus pushing forth the conviction of Tyrion, thus causing Shae to murder Ros out of complete revenge and hatred for what she did. Simply because Tyrion kills his father in a bedchamber does not mean that Ros has to be there as well.

I know this theory is totally insane but this is the only way I can rationalize in my mind Ros' place in the story. Besides, I have heard even more farfetched rumors (such as LF for no reason murdering Ros??) that totally discredits my theory. No one really knows what will happen though. It's too far off to say.

[SerMixalot]

I can see Ros taking Dontos's part and LF killing her and right before refering to her spying on him for Varys.

The problem with that scenario is that if Ros helps LF help Sansa escape than presumably Varys will know where she went to, which may cause problems down the road. I dont think Book Varys knows where Sansa is and that my impact his future plans.

[lostinwesteros]

I can see Ros taking Dontos's part and LF killing her and right before refering to her spying on him for Varys.

The problem with that scenario is that if Ros helps LF help Sansa escape than presumably Varys will know where she went to, which may cause problems down the road. I dont think Book Varys knows where Sansa is and that my impact his future plans.

Ditto.

I can see possibility in both the PW Season 3 and in the PW Season 4 scenarios, but my thinking is that PW will not be until Season 4. I think that having the PW so close to the RW would dilute each of them to some extent. I also think that after the RW we need time to show Catelyn showing up undead, tying in with the BWB thread running throughout Season 3 so that Season 4 can show the development of Brienne's showing up to be 'judged' by unCat. In order for this to happen, there needs to be post-RW time for Arya and The Hound to encounter BWB so that Hound can battle Beric before unCat becomes a reality.

[Sasha Steelsong]

Pehaps we get both weddings this season (I doubt it, though it would be interesting tematically), with PW being the last episode and Tyrion's arrest a cliffhanger. Then the next season is centered around Tyrion's trial, etc.

Well actually it will be three weddings if we get them all this season, not just two, since we'll also be getting Tyrion/Sansa - this episode in particular seemed to be foreshaddowing that a lot. I really do hope we get all three weddings (especially if we get the leaches scene it will be nice to see all the kings die in the same season), and that S4 focuses on Tyrion's trial/escape and all that fun. With that said I'm not holding my breath that we'll get to the PW as much as I think ending the season on Tryion's arrest will be a good thing, I won't be surprised if they save that for the second or even third (though that would be pushing it) episode in Season 4.

[Sasha Steelsong]

I'm not saying the PW this season is impossible I'm just saying it would be extremely illogical. In fact, the entire reason that the Martells are showing up in the first place was an act of goodwill by Tywin (if I remember correctly) hoping to mend relations after the Mountain raped that one girl that Oberyn will eventually kill him over in the combat scene (sorry--I don't remember her name right now, it's been a long time since I read the books). Anyway, it should be realized that they are not just strolling into King's Landing for no reason. Getting to the wedding is the only reason they'd show up. ThereforeI think it will be next season. Not saying that's set in stone but it's just my personal opinion and what I would do if I were a writer.

No it isn't, getting to the wedding is actually an afterthought. They show up because Oberyn is going to take the seat on the small council that was part of the whole Myrcella deal with Dorne. So it would be very easy to have the Martells show up next season and have Oberyn go find Tyrion in a cell out of curiosity (mirroring what they did as kids when he went to Casterly Rock) to get them to bond.