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Logodnica

[Book Spoilers] If Joffrey is already being fitted for wedding clothes...

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I can't fathom why after the RW you would immediately go to the PW in the next episode. Especially when the title gives us clear signaling of the two people that will most likely have prominence, Uncat and Danny.

The only real reasoning we have heard for this is an incorrect assumption that Joff was trying on wedding clothes, and the more prominent idea that people need something to feel good about. The later being a childlike level of thinking that is everything ASOIAF is not about.

None of the above even takes into account the oddness of having a wedding right after one of the biggest moments of the book which happens to be another wedding.

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Too many issues with having the PW in Season 4 (let's say episode 3):

- Jaime has nothing to do from around Episode 7 Seaon 3 to Episode 3 of Season 4 in the PW

- The stories of all the Tyrells and Lannisters in KL in Season 3 have no climax.

- The stories of all the Tyrells and Lannisters in KL in Season 3 have no forward momentum as they enter Season 4. They have not moved forward, they are still carrying out marriage preparations, they are still in effectively the same position as they were at the end of Season 3.

- The story of Tyrion and Sansa climax too soon during Season 3. If we treat their wedding as the climax of their Season 3 storyline, then it is an unsatisfactory climax, as it becomes void when the PW comes in the middle of Season 4.

- The stories of ALL tyrells and Lannisters (including Tyrion, and Sansa as a Stark), have a weird plot movement in season 4. They start with no forward momentum and at the same place as at the end of Season 3 when Season 4 starts, they have a very early climax by say episode 3, they have a very rapid change of scenery in terms of their position in the plot in the middle of the season, and another climax and another rapid change at the end of the season.

- Minor plot turns introduced in Season 3 are unresolved (i.e. Littlefinger tells Sansa he wants to take her away; Margaery, Joeffrey and Cercei prepare for a wedding; the Queen of Thorns and Margaery hint that they have a plot to deal with Joffrey; Jaime is on a journey to KL but hasn't yet arrived there as he can only do so after the PW). In TV you have large show wide arcs that take place throughout the seasons, and you have smaller season-wide arcs that spun an entire season (examples of season wide arcs in previous seasons: Jon Snow travels with Qhorin Halfhand until he is forced to kill him to infiltrate the wildlings; Daenerys travels to Qarth and has her dragon's stolen there; Tyrion is captured by Catelyn Stark and has to figure out how to escape and travel all the way back to King's Landing; Jaime is imprisoned by Robb and has to find a way to start his escape; Theon plots to capture Winterfell and eventually fails; Arya Stark is imprisoned in Harrengall and has to arrange her escape). All the season wide arcs listed here have proper and neat beginnings, build-ups, climaxes, and ends, that span an entire season. You can't start a minor arc at the start of a season, leave it hanging mid-way by the end of the season, tell the audience to wait and remember everything that happened for a year, and then end that arc a third of the way into the next season. That's bad storytelling, and it leaves the audience unfulfilled. The show can't introduce Joff's wedding, Sansa's escape attempt, Marg's and the QOT's plots, and then tells the audience 'Well we've been hinting at all these things for a season, but we'll just leave them hanging, try and remember what happened for a year and check back next season where we'll close these arcs quickly in the first three episodes of the new season, and introduce you to new story arcs". Instead if the PW closes all these story arcs, it creates new story arcs that start neatly at the start of season 4 (Tyrion is imprisoned, and must face a trial and plan his escape; Jaime arrives in King's Landing and must decide between his sister and his brother; Oberyn arrives in King's Landing to renew Dorne's fealty to the crown, and must plot his revenge against the mountain and Tywin; Cercei and Margaery must fight for Tommen's affections; Sansa arrives in the Vale and must handle her aunt and Littlefinger).

- The PW loses its impact if its not paired with the RW. Pairing the two together at the same time or very near to each other, creates a theme and allows the viewer to contrast the two. Separating them by a year, and having them some 5 episodes apart will actually make the TV-only viewer feel that the show is getting unimaginative: the TV-only viewer will start thinking "A death at a wedding AGAIN? Can't the show think of something new, we've seen the same thing last year, are we expected to be surprised again?"

There are more than enough big events to fit into Season 4. TWO big battles (Meereen and the wall). One cool new character with a fully fleshed out story arc (Oberyn). A big trial by combat scene. The meeting of two of the major characters in the series (Jon and Stannis). A very emotional murder scene (Tyrion and Shae/Tywin). A road adventure with Arya and the Hound. Possibly the conclusion of Bran's storyline, assuming they push it forward from DwD. That's MORE than enough material for a season!!!

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I can't fathom why after the RW you would immediately go to the PW in the next episode. Especially when the title gives us clear signaling of the two people that will most likely have prominence, Uncat and Danny.

The only real reasoning we have heard for this is an incorrect assumption that Joff was trying on wedding clothes, and the more prominent idea that people need something to feel good about. The later being a childlike level of thinking that is everything ASOIAF is not about.

None of the above even takes into account the oddness of having a wedding right after one of the biggest moments of the book which happens to be another wedding.

Cercei specifically mentions Margaery's wedding gown, so they ARE talking about a wedding. It's also not to give people something to feel good about. It's because its makes narrative sense in terms of plot structure, whereas being in Season 4 does not. I think the two weddings will happen in the same episode, which will focus on only two locations, the Twins and King's Landing and the two weddings presented next to each other. Episode 10 will have Cat's corpse found by the BwB and end with her been resurrected, will end Jaime's storyline with him just arriving in the city, will show the fallback from the two deaths and in Stannis's storyline will vindicate Melisandre's curse in the eyes of Stannis and Davos (if, as they assume, they show the scene with the burning leeches. I don't think the show will try to make the deaths of the two king's unexpected, I think what will be unexpected is the way they will happen). Dany will have her Myssa scene, and her turning to Meereen when she sees the first crucified child will be the second to last scene (the last being the reveal of UnCat).

There's no significant event that happens in between the two weddings that can't somehow be moved somewhere else. There's the conversation with Tyrion, Tywin and Joeffrey where Tywin understands what kind of monster Joeffrey is, but that can easily be moved around. The only argument against having the PW in Season 3 is to have one single scene with Oberyn and Tyrion even though:

a) the show will NEVER have as long an exposition scene as the entire conversation between Tyrion and Oberyn. That is a scene that could easily last 10 to 15 minutes if the conversation lasts as long as it does in the book, and the show has too little precious time to waste on it. The information on the Martell's will ALWAYS be presented spread out in many scenes in any case, regardless of where the PW is placed. And when has the show EVER been faithful to the books when expositions scenes are concerned rather than have the information presented spread out in different parts of the show?

B) it makes MORE narrative sense for Oberyn to arrive AFTER the PW, otherwise why would nobody suspect the notorious poisoner with a very vocal and outright hatred of all Lannisters as having plotted to kill the king (even with the aid of Tyrion if the argument is that Cercei suspects Tyrion too much given Sansa's disappearance).

c) The exact same scene can be replayed with Oberyn visiting Tyrion in the cells a couple of times (whom he does visit anyway), or by having the information told to Jaime who replaces Tyrion as the escort to King's Landing.

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And one other thing. Saying that the PW will not be rushed because the RW happens in episode 9 fails to look at the season in TV terms. In a season, ALL characters have their own arc, and ALL must have some kind of closure to their season arc. You can't just write a season thinking that well we have one big event happening in the Robb camp, so its alright to leave the majority of the King's Landing characters with an incomplete season arc, because the events in the other camps compensate for it, so we'll have the audience wait for a whole YEAR to find the conclusion of those storylines. All characters must have seasonal closure. This is not a book where we think of events within the whole narrative as separate and coming in a sequence one after the other. This is a TV show season where different characters have arcs that run in parallel, with all seasonal arcs needing parallel completion by the end of the season.

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Having RW and PW is also far too much HSQ, it will detract from the impact of each

No, as I mentioned, having them seperate will detract from the impact of the PW. Quoting myself from above:

- The PW loses its impact if its not paired with the RW. Pairing the two together at the same time or very near to each other, creates a theme and allows the viewer to contrast the two. Separating them by a year, and having them some 5 episodes apart will actually make the TV-only viewer feel that the show is getting unimaginative: the TV-only viewer will start thinking "A death at a wedding AGAIN? Can't the show think of something new, we've seen the same thing last year, are we expected to be surprised again?"

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No, as I mentioned, having them seperate will detract from the impact of the PW. Quoting myself from above:

- The PW loses its impact if its not paired with the RW. Pairing the two together at the same time or very near to each other, creates a theme and allows the viewer to contrast the two. Separating them by a year, and having them some 5 episodes apart will actually make the TV-only viewer feel that the show is getting unimaginative: the TV-only viewer will start thinking "A death at a wedding AGAIN? Can't the show think of something new, we've seen the same thing last year, are we expected to be surprised again?"

I disagree, I think putting them together so close together makes it seem like the show has no ideas. It looks less like cruel ironic mirroring and more like a gimmick. Maybe if the RW happened halfway through teh season it would work. But I can see we're never going to agree.

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You present a good argument, lotun. But I never the less will disagree with you for one simple reason: You can not have 3 separate weddings in one single season in the span of 5 or 6 episode. It would strike show viewers as one tone, and slightly ridiculous.

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While I have no real opinion on whether the PW will be this season or not, reading everyone's posts has made me wonder if they do accelerate the RW is it because they want to introduce Aegon sooner?

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While I have no real opinion on whether the PW will be this season or not, reading everyone's posts has made me wonder if they do accelerate the RW is it because they want to introduce Aegon sooner?

We'd have to find out he ever existed first. Has Aerys' murdered family really been mentioned?

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We'd have to find out he ever existed first. Has Aerys' murdered family really been mentioned?

I think it was in conversation in S1. I won't swear to it though, I could easily be confusing the books with the show.

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We'd have to find out he ever existed first. Has Aerys' murdered family really been mentioned?

Actually, I had noticed that Aegon hasn't been mentioned yet (when someone was worrying that the Blackfyres hadn't been mentioned yet). I have been wondering if that meant he wouldn't be in the story or if the shows producers thought it would be too confusing to drop hints about a character who wouldn't be seen for awhile when there were so many other characters for viewers to keep track of.

Note on Sun's post: I have no reason to doubt Sun's claim it was in S1. My memory is terrible.

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Actually, I had noticed that Aegon hasn't been mentioned yet (when someone was worrying that the Blackfyres hadn't been mentioned yet). I have been wondering if that meant he wouldn't be in the story or if the shows producers thought it would be too confusing to drop hints about a character who wouldn't be seen for awhile when there were so many other characters for viewers to keep track of.

Note on Sun's post: I have no reason to doubt Sun's claim it was in S1. My memory is terrible.

Cat says in S1E8 that Tywin butchered the "Targaryen children" when he took KL, but I don't think they're mentioned by name.

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Aegon will likely be mentioned during whatever exposition we get with Oberyn. All the more reason to have Season 3 end with PW so that episode 9x04 can be Oberyn losing the trial by battle. That way we get 9 episodes of exposition about the Martells. If PW happens 4x04 then we only get 4 episodes. Silly show planning.

Edit: Also, doesn't Joffrey scream for his mother as he chokes out? So the episode title could be for 3 mothers -- Danny, UnCat, and Cersei. Remember that Cersei's defining trait is her children.

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That's kind of drawing out Tyrion's time in prison a bit though! I suppose Jaime can be a Tyrion expy for his conversations with Oberyn if he gets back to KL before Oberyn arrives

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SPOILER ALERT

It has been revealed that the episode that GRRM will write for season 4 will be episode two. So I think the events in Kings Landing in this seasons finale will be getting prepared for Joffrey's wedding, the Lannisters preparing for the Dornish arrival, and the aftermath of a certain event.

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I disagree, I think putting them together so close together makes it seem like the show has no ideas. It looks less like cruel ironic mirroring and more like a gimmick. Maybe if the RW happened halfway through teh season it would work. But I can see we're never going to agree.

Well we'll have to agree to disagree then. We'll see how it plays out. I reserve the right to say 'told you so' though if I'm right :D.

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Like someone said above...

GRRM has revealed that he is writing episode 2 of season 4 and he has turned it in... Purple Wedding

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I'm firmly in the PW in ep 10 camp, (but not to the point of calling anyone insane who doesn't agree.) It's just how I'd write it, if I were adapting these books to a TV series, and needed to end some arcs.

Non-book readers need a serious bone.

Cersei

screaming for Tyrion's arrest

makes for one of several great cliffhangers, and is one of the three Mhysas.

Lady Stoneheart

is the 3rd, and will take all of 5 minutes of screen time.

The Martells don't need to show up until next season, just like the Reeds were fine being introduced this season. People need to get over expecting everything to play out exactly like it does in the books. I know it's amazing, but it's still a TV series.

After Lady Olenna's rant from Ep 2, Mace doesn't need to show up at all. Loras can give away Margaery.

And there's still plenty of time in the episode for Jon and

the wildling fight at the Wall, with Ygritte's death.

In fact, I could easier see that happening at the beginning of next season rather than postpone the PW for yet another season, since there's really no reason to as far as plot goes.

As others have mentioned in this thread,

the RW and PW happen almost back to back in the book.

As for Second Sons: Joffrey is Cersei's 2nd son (her son w/Robert died.) Tommen is Jamie's 2nd son, and

will be their 2nd son on the IT.

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