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[Book Spoilers] If Joffrey is already being fitted for wedding clothes...

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Very interested. I don't think it is at all stupid to think the PW could be in season three. It literally happens a few chapters after the RW in the Tyrion-Sansa chronology. Forget the page number that it happens, there are Davos and Jon chapters that separate the RW and the PW. And since most think the battle of castle black will happen in season 4 (something I don't understand at all) then that discounts Jon's chapter from right after the RW, making the PW easily adaptable right after the RW

Mace Tyrell or Oberyn don't need to be there, at least have a cast character portray. What do they do that is important in that scene? I just reread it, they're not important.

But all the story arcs need a scene or two in the final episode. I definitely don't think the battle of castle black will happen in season 3, but I do think Jon will get back to the wall in episode 10 and have a closing scene there. I also expect Bran to meet Samwell in episode 10 (as seen in the trailer), and we're also pretty much guaranteed to see Dany taking Yunkai with the Mhysa scene, we'll see reactions in Kings Landing to the Red Wedding, confirmation of Arya's survival and her interactions with the hound, possible Jaime/Brienne and Theon scenes and we'll see Stannis's reaction to Robb's death and his debate over killing Gendry. There simply isn't time for the Purple Wedding on top of that without doing it a great disservice. Remember, the Purple Wedding covers multiple chapters in the book.

With regards to Mace and Oberyn: as has been said by me and others, the PW is the whole reason why they're there in the first place. If they don't arrive then why on earth should they arrive later? Secondly, Oberyn is a useful suspect for the audience as to who murdered Tyrion and his story is a fan favourite. Replacing Mace and Oberyn would be a clunky move serving only to confuse the audience, who will be excited to see the key players of the major households. This contrasts with both Beric and Selyse who seem unimportant at the time (indeed Selyse was barely noticeable in season 2)

Initially, I was in favour of the PW in Season 3. However, I wanted the RW in episode 8 giving breathing room for the PW in episode 10. To me, not having an episodes gap between the events is simply unfeasible. Further more, over time, and with subsequent rereads, I definitely changed my views on this issue. I think that there are some excellent plot elements that happen prior to the PW and it would significantly weaken the series for these not to be included.

Anyway, this is all I have to say on the matter (really really really!). Thanks for the discussion.

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As someone else said up stream, do they even need the PW? Joff is a great character and maybe it makes sense to make a swerve and keep him around instead.

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As someone else said up stream, do they even need the PW? Joff is a great character and maybe it makes sense to make a swerve and keep him around instead.

That would make book four's chapters completely irrelevant and change too much story wise.

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So if the PW is episode 10, is Tyrion gonna sit in jail the whole season 4?

I don't see why not. He sits in that cell for 40% of the book, and can escape in ep 7, 8, or 9. Tywin doesn't need to wait until Ep 10 to die, although I think it would be best.

If the PW is in 4:2 or 4:4, are Jamie and Brienne going to wander Westeros for more than an entire season?

But all the story arcs need a scene or two in the final episode. I definitely don't think the battle of castle black will happen in season 3, but I do think Jon will get back to the wall in episode 10 and have a closing scene there. I also expect Bran to meet Samwell in episode 10 (as seen in the trailer), and we're also pretty much guaranteed to see Dany taking Yunkai with the Mhysa scene, we'll see reactions in Kings Landing to the Red Wedding, confirmation of Arya's survival and her interactions with the hound, possible Jaime/Brienne and Theon scenes and we'll see Stannis's reaction to Robb's death and his debate over killing Gendry.

No, they don't. And what you mention takes about 30 min, tops, even if all of it was included, which it doesn't need to be. Theon, Jamie/Brienne, Stannis, etc can all wait until next season. Why would you give Stannis two or three scenes to discover the events of each wedding, when it can be done in one? Just like this last ep with Bolton and his two raven scrolls.

There simply isn't time for the Purple Wedding on top of that without doing it a great disservice. Remember, the Purple Wedding covers multiple chapters in the book.

This is a TV series, not the book. There's a lot that is getting changed because of it. How many weddings does a TV audience need, before they become repetitive and the audience gets bored?? We already know what happens at weddings. This is a smart show for a smart audience. If they want more, they can read the books. The only thing that really needs to happen is the QoT straightening Sansa's hair. Sansa getting the hairnet (3min), and Joffrey wrecking Tyrion's gift (3min) can happen in ep 9.

As big as it's going to be, I don't think they're going to make all of Ep9 the RW.

With regards to Mace and Oberyn: as has been said by me and others, the PW is the whole reason why they're there in the first place.

In the BOOK. So what? That doesn't mean it has to be the reason in the SHOW.

Cersei blames Tyrion and Sansa for the assassination. So why exactly does Oberyn need to be introduced before the PW?

Oberyn's purpose is to show hatred for the Lannisters and Gregor.

This^^.

If they don't arrive then why on earth should they arrive later?

Really? "If I don't need to take a bath now, why should I take a bath ever?" But honestly, they don't. At least not this season, or before the PW. They'll have the Viper, even though Bronn or Jamie could step in. They don't need Mace for a while. Lady Olenna has already told the audience what an imbecile he is, and that he's likely to go over a cliff just like his father.

Secondly, Oberyn is a useful suspect for the audience as to who murdered Tyrion and his story is a fan favourite.

In the BOOK. Ramsey is a fan fave too, but they changed that as well.

Besides, it won't be necessary if the audience sees who poisons Joffrey in the first place. Remember, they don't do flashbacks, so I think we're going to see it happen, then watch Tyrion be falsely accused, etc... Just like Barristan, it's not going to be a long, drawn out mystery for the audience like it was for the reader in the books.

Initially, I was in favour of the PW in Season 3. However, I wanted the RW in episode 8 giving breathing room for the PW in episode 10. To me, not having an episodes gap between the events is simply unfeasible. Further more, over time, and with subsequent rereads, I definitely changed my views on this issue. I think that there are some excellent plot elements that happen prior to the PW and it would significantly weaken the series for these not to be included.

It's a TV show, which relies on momentum, not a drop in the action. We're having that now at the beginning of the season.

I can't say it enough - this is a TV series, not the books. If you want the books, read them again. But you're not going to get the books in the show.

You may very well be right, and the PW might indeed be in season 4. But I don't see it happening for any of the reasons you mention. To me, every reason you've given is a reason to not have it next season. Just because it works that way in the book, doesn't mean it would make for good TV pacing. :dunno:

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I just don't see the PW ending this season. So far they've ended every season with a supernatural "stinger" like Dany's dragons and the white walkers, so that more than anything makes me think the last scene will be Cat's resurrection. Could be wrong though, because with the RW probably happening in episode 9 that doesn't give veiwers a lot of time to really dwell on her being dead before BAM murderzombie in the house.

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It's a TV show, which relies on momentum, not a drop in the action. We're having that now at the beginning of the season.

Well if you look back at the previous seasons, the most intense things happened in episode 8 or 9 (blackwater, neds death etc) with the last episode dealing with the aftermath. This season will likely follow this formula, with RW and daenerys battle for mereen in episode 9 and episode 10 dealing with the aftermaths. the seasons usualy end with a teaser for whats to come (dannys dragons, the white walkers) and i think cats ressurection will be the final scene of this season

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I don't see why not. He sits in that cell for 40% of the book, and can escape in ep 7, 8, or 9. Tywin doesn't need to wait until Ep 10 to die, although I think it would be best.

If the PW is in 4:2 or 4:4, are Jamie and Brienne going to wander Westeros for more than an entire season?

40% of the book? He spends 2 chapters in a cell.

They can have Jaime get to KL before the PW.

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to use extras for Oberyn and Mace in EP3x10, only to re-cast them in EP4x1-2 sounds incredibly lazy and confusing for the audience. The characters you mentioned had no real significance to the story during their first appearance and most people who only watched the series probably forgot about Dondarirrions appearance in S1, while both Mace and Oberyn are central characters in westeros society so the audience will know that these two are important dudes and most likely remember what they look like.

Amen Brother/Sister.

I have thought of another reason why this PW can't happen in my own mind. The buildup to the PW and the preparations are described by Tyrion as "pompous." In other words, remember that ridiculous pie with hundreds of birds in it? Remember that ridiculous bard competition planned afterwards? These are all things that should come up in question episodes before the wedding actually occurs. There is no other way it could not. Apparently, the Sansa wedding is become more pompous by the minute, especially since it was only a secret ceremony in the books--imagine how the PW will be in comparison? The "Wedding to start the new millennium" in Westeros?? Ring any bells?

My point is that if the PW is going to happen in 10, we will definitely know in a few episodes. This is not something that will knock us in the face. The absurd preparations don't have to happen, but I can't see why they wouldn't.

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Cersei blames Tyrion and Sansa for the assassination. So why exactly does Oberyn need to be introduced before the PW?

Oberyn's purpose is to show hatred for the Lannisters and Gregor. He can easily fill that role after the PW. Tyrion's arc still has his interactions with Jaime, the trial and combat, and finally the murder of Tywin. Season 4, especially if parts of AFFC/ADwD are included in it will be too rushed if a few episodes are wasted early on doing PW. Logical end point for Tyrion's season 4 arc is him killing Tywin and Shae. Sansa's end point is LF throwing Lysa out the Moon Door.

So if PW happens in season 4 episode 2 or 4 like people are advocating we only have 6-8 episodes to show Oberyn, the trial, the combat, and Tywin's death. That is some MAJOR story compressed into a very short time. Even Poor Dead Ned had 2 episodes of imprisonment before he lost his head and there was no trial or trial by combat or introduction of an entire new faction that becomes important later.

Another point...I very highly doubt at this point that Tyrion will kill Shae, or that she will be the one to betray him. This is looking more and more like Ros at this point. TV Shae is extremely different than the Shae in the books, and to be honest Ros at this point is rivaling Varys in terms of mystery and the ambiguity of her true intentions in my opinion. It will be interesting.

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40% of the book?

You're right. Okay - He spends 16 chapters out of 82 locked up. That's 5% of the whole book. But since ASOS is getting cut 2/3 through the book for season three per GRRM then 1/3 of the book = 27 chapters for season 4. 16 chapters is almost 75 % of season 4 if they end Tyrion's arc with him leaving Westeros. Although I detest comparing the book to the show via chapter numbers and bookology as opposed to chronology.

He spends 2 chapters in a cell.

Incorrect.

Chapter 61: Tyrion VIII - he's arrested

16 chapters happen

Chapter 78: Tyrion XI - he escapes

4 more chapters happen before end of book.

They can have Jaime get to KL before the PW.

Not without changing a huge part of the plot, but it's an adaptation, so anything is possible.

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Amen Brother/Sister.

I have thought of another reason why this PW can't happen in my own mind. The buildup to the PW and the preparations are described by Tyrion as "pompous." In other words, remember that ridiculous pie with hundreds of birds in it? Remember that ridiculous bard competition planned afterwards? These are all things that should come up in question episodes before the wedding actually occurs. There is no other way it could not. Apparently, the Sansa wedding is become more pompous by the minute, especially since it was only a secret ceremony in the books--imagine how the PW will be in comparison? The "Wedding to start the new millennium" in Westeros?? Ring any bells?

My point is that if the PW is going to happen in 10, we will definitely know in a few episodes. This is not something that will knock us in the face. The absurd preparations don't have to happen, but I can't see why they wouldn't.

While I love all that over-the-top prep stuff for the PW, it only takes as long as you took to type it, for a character to talk about it, and establish it as fact. They don't need to show it, nor does having it or not having it, affect the plot in any way.

My non-book reader friends all already think they'll see Joffrey/Margaery wedding this season, and are thinking it will happen in the next few episodes, since it was established last season, and Cersei mentioning Margaery's wedding gown this week.

How is Sansa's wedding (that hasn't been mentioned at all, and no character has even alluded to in any way) becoming "more pompous by the minute"?

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^Trailers and people who were there at the time informed us that Sansa's wedding will be a big affair.

Don't have time for full reply or anything but for anyone who wants to reference the arithmetic:

Tyrion's arrest at the Purple Wedding is 74% of the way through ASOS. i.e. it's at the 3/4 mark.

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^Trailers and people who were there at the time informed us that Sansa's wedding will be a big affair.

Don't have time for full reply or anything but for anyone who wants to reference the arithmetic:

Tyrion's arrest at the Purple Wedding is 74% of the way through ASOS. i.e. it's at the 3/4 mark.

And Cat's resurrection is at the end of ASOS, but everyone thinks it's happening this season because of Character Arc. So? :dunno:

As for the first wedding to happen being a BIG AFFAIR - all the more reason to not repeat a BIG AFFAIR (as in on screen action) for a third time. It will be talked about and referred to, but actually filming it, would make it redundant, repetitive, and boring. And also a waste of precious story-telling time, they really can't waste. Which is probably one of the many reasons (along with $$$) we didn't get the actual battle at the Fist.

It's called A Game of Thrones, not A Game of Weddings.

EDIT - something else I just thought of - in one of the trailers we see Joffrey and Margaery exit the Sept at Baelor to a huge cheering crowd - but we haven't heard a peep about that scene being filmed. So..... ? Clearly we don't know.

Both Lady S and the PW could happen this season, or next. We just don't know.

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While I love all that over-the-top prep stuff for the PW, it only takes as long as you took to type it, for a character to talk about it, and establish it as fact. They don't need to show it, nor does having it or not having it, affect the plot in any way.

My non-book reader friends all already think they'll see Joffrey/Margaery wedding this season, and are thinking it will happen in the next few episodes, since it was established last season, and Cersei mentioning Margaery's wedding gown this week.

How is Sansa's wedding (that hasn't been mentioned at all, and no character has even alluded to in any way) becoming "more pompous by the minute"?

It has been alluded to. It will be in episode 8 or possibly sooner. True, it hasn't been mentioned in the show but it is far too early at this point. Plus I think that viewers will not even know about it until the actual scene itself. This makes for a better shock on Sansa's part and is far more dramatic, at least that's how I'd write it.

The wedding is getting very pompous compared to book standards. What was supposed to be a secret affair from the books now appears to be a public event held in the Sept of Baelor, at least that's what the rumors say. I don't know why the Lannisters suddenly give a shit about Sansa--maybe they are just trying to publicly humiliate her but there you go.

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And Cat's resurrection is at the end of ASOS, but everyone thinks it's happening this season because of Character Arc. So? :dunno:

That alone isn't the sole reason for my belief but your example is a bad one anyway. We're not suggesting we get Catelyn's scene from the end of ASOS. We're suggesting we get the Beric Dondarrion "kiss of life" scene with Catelyn that happens chronologically just after the Red Wedding. That resurrection scene is not in the books at all because Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr are not PoV characters but it would be a great addition to the story.

Furthermore, even if your example were accurate, it would not be analogous. The Purple Wedding is a key event around which multiple plot lines are centred. Uncat, however, has little influence over other plot lines in her immediate chronological vicinity.

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I would like to comment again on the purpose that this thread was eventually started because I think there's some confusion. I do not think that the tailor scene with Joffrey was meant to be of any importance. Actually, some of the clothes that Joffrey has made are worn in the next scene with M if I'm not mistaken. I think he is just trying to impress her or something--who knows?

The wedding gown comment by Cersei...do not brides have their gowns made months before a wedding? This means nothing. Plus, I think that this "let her use it for her wedding gown" comment was more of a cruel jape than anything, in case a lot of people didn't catch that. I think she was basically saying that "wow you don't want that piece of cloth with flowers? Let's give it to Marge because she'll take things you don't want and like it." (In other words, we're better than her). The scene was not even needed really. It simply reemphasized the point that Joffrey does not listen to her.

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Amen Brother/Sister.

I have thought of another reason why this PW can't happen in my own mind. The buildup to the PW and the preparations are described by Tyrion as "pompous." In other words, remember that ridiculous pie with hundreds of birds in it? Remember that ridiculous bard competition planned afterwards? These are all things that should come up in question episodes before the wedding actually occurs. There is no other way it could not. Apparently, the Sansa wedding is become more pompous by the minute, especially since it was only a secret ceremony in the books--imagine how the PW will be in comparison? The "Wedding to start the new millennium" in Westeros?? Ring any bells?

My point is that if the PW is going to happen in 10, we will definitely know in a few episodes. This is not something that will knock us in the face. The absurd preparations don't have to happen, but I can't see why they wouldn't.

Yes we'll have to wait and see about whether PW is in this season or not.

However, lack of showing preparations is in no way an indication as to whether or not an event will happen in the TV show. I seem to remember a hell of a lot more build up and preparation to the Battle of Blackwater Bay than they showed in the TV show. I guess since they didn't show the Antler Men and the Chain that they really messed up by having Blackwater happen in Season 2 it totally should have randomly happened in 2x03!

PS. Note how there has been zero mention of the new century in the TV show? Yeah...

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It has been alluded to. It will be in episode 8 or possibly sooner. True, it hasn't been mentioned in the show but it is far too early at this point. Plus I think that viewers will not even know about it until the actual scene itself. This makes for a better shock on Sansa's part and is far more dramatic, at least that's how I'd write it.

The wedding is getting very pompous compared to book standards. What was supposed to be a secret affair from the books now appears to be a public event held in the Sept of Baelor, at least that's what the rumors say. I don't know why the Lannisters suddenly give a shit about Sansa--maybe they are just trying to publicly humiliate her but there you go.

I totally agree, and hope it happens that way - that it's a shock to the viewers - we find out when Sansa does. I think it can still be a big affair, and the reason is, the Lannisters need to prove the wedding had been planned in advance. Sansa thinks she's getting married to a Tyrell (my guess is Loras on the show, no need to mention a new character for the audience to track that we never even meet anyway.) And after looking at this even more awesome TIMELINE, I think that wedding #1 might just happen sooner.

The Lannisters give a shit about Winterfell and the North, and don't want it falling into the hands of the Tyrells. Sansa is the key to that.

However, since Dontos is gone, Sansa will tell LF of her betrothal to Loras, because he's her SuperCrush, and she won't want to leave with LF anymore. Then LF will tell Tywin. Poor Sansa!

That alone isn't the sole reason for my belief but your example is a bad one anyway. We're not suggesting we get Catelyn's scene from the end of ASOS. We're suggesting we get the Beric Dondarrion "kiss of life" scene with Catelyn that happens chronologically just after the Red Wedding. That resurrection scene is not in the books at all because Beric Dondarrion and Thoros of Myr are not PoV characters but it would be a great addition to the story.

Furthermore, even if your example were accurate, it would not be analogous. The Purple Wedding is a key event around which multiple plot lines are centred. Uncat, however, has little influence over other plot lines in her immediate chronological vicinity.

You're now contradicting yourself, and to quote Show Robb, "arguing just to argue."

I would like to comment again on the purpose that this thread was eventually started because I think there's some confusion. I do not think that the tailor scene with Joffrey was meant to be of any importance. Actually, some of the clothes that Joffrey has made are worn in the next scene with M if I'm not mistaken. I think he is just trying to impress her or something--who knows?

The wedding gown comment by Cersei...do not brides have their gowns made months before a wedding? This means nothing. Plus, I think that this "let her use it for her wedding gown" comment was more of a cruel jape than anything, in case a lot of people didn't catch that. I think she was basically saying that "wow you don't want that piece of cloth with flowers? Let's give it to Marge because she'll take things you don't want and like it." (In other words, we're better than her). The scene was not even needed really. It simply reemphasized the point that Joffrey does not listen to her.

I just jumped on HBOGO (thank you HBO!!!) and Joffrey puts on the same coat at the end of the fitting ("this is the most boring conversation...") that he's wearing for his sociopath contest/date with Margaery. The red velvet thing the tailor makes he's wearing in the scene where he screams, "Everyone is mine to torment!", which might be Sansa's wedding?

Brides in 2013 Earth have their wedding gowns made/ordered months before the wedding (or for more $$$ you can rush it) because it's a huuuuuuge industry designed to take people's money, and create last-minute chaos so you'll throw money at the problem to fix it, since it's ZOMFG YOUR WEDDING!!! Lesson? Always LIE to vendors about your wedding date (when it comes to things like clothing you're buying/things you're having made that don't involve food or fresh flowers....) Tell them it's months earlier than it is, so if they screw up, THEY will fix it for free. (I used to work in the industry....)

But in KL, your gown is made, and you're married in less that a week. See Sansa 2 and 3.

I definitely think Cersei was slamming Margaery because she can get away with her skin-revealing fashions, "She dresses like a harlot for a reason." where Cersei really can't... due to age-appropriate fashion of the nobility in KL, (and she resents that in a BIG way.) "Should be more than enough fabric."

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You're now contradicting yourself, and to quote Show Robb, "arguing just to argue."

I'm not contradicting myself at all. And, well, in reply to Robb - he did go back on his promise to marry the Frey girl. And likewise, your use of Catelyn in your argument was wrong (and it would have been nice if you had just accepted that fact and moved on).

Anyway, why do you want the PW in Season 3? If it's revenge you want I've still got faith.*

*if you're Robb Stark I'll be Rickard Karstark :P

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