[No Spoilers] On Daniel Minahan, Action Sequences and Mirrors - Part II

[Tywin's bastard]

2. The wildfire was solid. But everything else in that episode was pukeworthy. The horrid special effects and totally forgettable battle scene? King Stannis being on the front lines and the first up a ladder? Those needless forced scenes between Bronn and Sandor? The horrible choppy feeling to the flow of the constant Cersei/Sansa scenes? On that note, some of the worst acting by both Lena and Sophie both? Oh, and not to mention Sandor's lack of menace making show viewers question why Sansa turned down his offer? How about Tyrion's grand plan in the show be "blow them up, then use a sewer line to sneak behind them lol" as opposed to legitimate tactics and strategy? Actually, how about the total absence of any military or strategic talk whatsoever? Hmm, how about that awful scene where Cersei nearly kills Tommen, which made all my nonbook reading friends ask me "who's that kid?" since the show doesn't establish things? How about Sandor's fear in fire, which while it makes sense, is another thing nonbook readers never caught on to? That whole episode was fucking awful, The National's cover of Rains of Castamere in the credits was easily the best part of that hour. All of this is my opinion.

I don't think you'll get much better than that, seeing how it was George who wrote the episode (meaning the the story choices you complain about were all his) and I doubt anything will look better either, given the budget. Even more reason to expect the same things from the show is that the episode was very widely praised (got some individual awards as well) so I guess you'd better set your expectations thereafter. This is just me giving a tip, I'm not complaining about you having these opinions (including the rest of them that I didn't quote), even if I disagree with them (and think that the drama queen language is a bit much).

[Loras]

I think you guys went in deciding you weren't going to like the fight scenes from the previews b/c I thought it was pretty awesome and really well done for two actors without stunt men. Your expectations are just unrealistic IMO.

Nobody has knocked the actors at all.

The problem that I had with the scene was the direction (and ultimate editing) of the duel. There is a thread about it from Episode 1 too, discussing the cold open and the Barristan scene. The problem, once again is not the acting or the action sequences but the way that the director has executed them. In my opinion - and it is only an opinion - he did not do a very good job on them.

[go joff go]

I'm not sure what you wante them to do? Did you want them to make the scene which probably was alrady the longest scene in the first two episodes 2 minutes longer and for the actors to have long stretches where they are huffing and puffing. I thought the scene was uniquely shot and that your criticisms seem nitpicky. If you hadn't read the books I think you would have beeen satisfied with the scene..

[The Mountain That Posts]

You bring up some really good points here. I would disagree with you on the Sansa attempted rape scene, I thought it was brilliantly set up and quite horrifying. Though I agree the Sandor the Terminator was dreadful. It ruined a wonderful scene.

The wildings scene was also directed Minahan.

To be fair, I don't really know why the showrunners decided to bring him back after Season 1 - harsh I know.

Yeah, he was pretty terrible. The thing with this show is I feel like EVERYONE behind the scenes is doing favors for everyone. LOL WE'RE SO IMPRESSED WITH THE ACTRESS WHO PLAYS ROS, LET'S CHANGE HER FROM A ONE EPISODE CHARACTER TO PRACTICALLY A MAIN CHARACTER CAUSE SHE'S SUCH A GOOD ACTRESS LOL.

And agreed about Sandor. That scene would've been gorgeous and horrifying, but instead they went 80's horror flick on us with OBVIOUSLY fake and clearly over the top guts pouring out of the corpses. This is the same reason the Walkers slaughter at the start of the first ep of season one, why all of the Blackwater Battle and why Arya's killing of the stableboy all are just fucking laughable.

I enjoyed Jon/Halfhand too - but it wasn't directed by Minahan. We have already praised his work on the Bronn/Vardis duel.

The problem with the fight is that there is a surplus of "arty" shots. The only one I actually enjoyed was the aerial shot because it added scope.

The fight itself was solid, and the acting was great too. It was a mixture of needless silly camera jazz AND the plot butchering* that made the scene mediocre.

*Us having no emotional attachment to the five minutes of TV Qhorin, the audience not really understanding what's going on and the fact Ygritte and them freeing Jon(without argument or protest to boot) without any real reasoning.

Nobody has knocked the actors at all.

The problem that I had with the scene was the direction (and ultimate editing) of the duel. There is a thread about it from Episode 1 too, discussing the cold open and the Barristan scene. The problem, once again is not the acting or the action sequences but the way that the director has executed them. In my opinion - and it is only an opinion - he did not do a very good job on them.

This. I agree.

If the show disgusts you so much, perhaps it would be more beneficial for your own happiness if you didn't watch it.

It really doesn't disgust me. I can get OUT of my book-loving head and watch it as just a TV show, but even then there are still loads of problems. Of course, so far, they're mainly all the second season and half the first ep of season 3.

I enjoyed the second ep of season 3 quite a bit, even if I disagree with their pacing, and I love the first season. I'm hoping the second season was just "growing pains" or some stupid bullshit excuse, because frankly the second season is awful, but i'm hoping season 3+ will be as great or greater than season one.

Also, i'm very much a believer of being able to enjoy something AND highly criticize it's countless flaws at the same time. You should've seen me on the Lost forums during the fourth season onwards. Man, was I so conflicted. I hated so many things they did, but still found so much enjoyment in the show(okay, mainly the actors/characters) to keep watching. Or, even lolzie, you should've seen my absolute DISGUST when watching seasons two and three of Heroes after how amazing the first season of that show was.

I don't think you'll get much better than that, seeing how it was George who wrote the episode (meaning the the story choices you complain about were all his) and I doubt anything will look better either, given the budget. Even more reason to expect the same things from the show is that the episode was very widely praised (got some individual awards as well) so I guess you'd better set your expectations thereafter. This is just me giving a tip, I'm not complaining about you having these opinions (including the rest of them that I didn't quote), even if I disagree with them (and think that the drama queen language is a bit much).

You'd actually be surprised. D&D rewrote about 80% of GRRM's script. He wrote it in NAME ONLY.

As far as I can tell, the only parts of that episode he actually HIMSELF wrote was the Davos/his son convos on the boats and the Cersei/Sansa + Cersei/Tommen scenes. Everything else? Rewritten. Stannis wasn't supposed to be on the frontlines, the Bronn/Sandor scene was supposed to very different and feature no nudity, the Sandor/Sansa scene was really toned down, Varys was supposed to reveal his nuts-losing back story, etc.

[Joyful Union]

You'd actually be surprised. D&D rewrote about 80% of GRRM's script. He wrote it in NAME ONLY.

As far as I can tell, the only parts of that episode he actually HIMSELF wrote was the Davos/his son convos on the boats and the Cersei/Sansa + Cersei/Tommen scenes. Everything else? Rewritten. Stannis wasn't supposed to be on the frontlines, the Bronn/Sandor scene was supposed to very different and feature no nudity, the Sandor/Sansa scene was really toned down, Varys was supposed to reveal his nuts-losing back story, etc.

I would be surprised, because you are wrong, at least half the scenes were written by GRRM. 80%? The Cersei scenes alone are at least 20% of the episode! Youre telling me all the scenes with Tyrion were rewritten? His conversations on the rampart?

Quit blaming everything on D&D!

[The Mountain That Posts]

I would be surprised, because you are wrong, at least half the scenes were written by GRRM. 80%? The Cersei scenes alone are at least 20% of the episode! Youre telling me all the scenes with Tyrion were rewritten? His conversations on the rampart?

Quit blaming everything on D&D!

I wasn't being literal with the "80%" part, but yes. Everything that wasn't Cersei or Davos, was rewritten. Everything he planned out for the battle was changed. He wanted the Sandor/Sansa scene to be a near rape like it was in the books, but they felt that was too "shocking". bronn and Sandor were simply supposed to be drinking and having fun with men before the bells, but they changed it and added a naked girl and a forced showdown between San and Bronn. Near every Tyrion scene was changed, except his speech itself. GRRM himself was notably disturbed, in the interviews I saw, with Stannis being on the front lines and the first up the fucking ladder.

But GRRM has said that his favorite change was Sandor's "Fuck the Kingsguard, fuck the city, fuck the king" lines because it was both brilliantly simple and made it clear to the audience that he was no longer Lannister.

[Loras]

I would be surprised, because you are wrong, at least half the scenes were written by GRRM. 80%? The Cersei scenes alone are at least 20% of the episode! Youre telling me all the scenes with Tyrion were rewritten? His conversations on the rampart?

Quit blaming everything on D&D!

Martin speaks about the changes (either from his original script or the books) for the majority of his commentary on the 'Blackwater' episode. It was extensively reviewed by D&D.

That being said, the thing that Martin seemed most upset about during that commentary was that none of the characters were wearing helmets.

[King of the Road]

I wasn't being literal with the "80%" part, but yes. Everything that wasn't Cersei or Davos, was rewritten. Everything he planned out for the battle was changed. He wanted the Sandor/Sansa scene to be a near rape like it was in the books, but they felt that was too "shocking". bronn and Sandor were simply supposed to be drinking and having fun with men before the bells, but they changed it and added a naked girl and a forced showdown between San and Bronn. Near every Tyrion scene was changed, except his speech itself. GRRM himself was notably disturbed, in the interviews I saw, with Stannis being on the front lines and the first up the fucking ladder.

But GRRM has said that his favorite change was Sandor's "Fuck the Kingsguard, fuck the city, fuck the king" lines because it was both brilliantly simple and made it clear to the audience that he was no longer Lannister.

Even if GRRM was disturbed by it it's not necessarily a bad change. It presents Stannis as a direct contrast to Joffrey and reinforces his belief in himself as Azor Ahai; he has utter faith that The Lord of Light will protect him. It's not like it's a massive change to the character, I don't understand why GRRM would be so uneasy about adding a few scenes of Stannis actually taking hold of the situation for himself.

I also thought I read that GRRM liked the scene with Bronn and The Hound but I could be wrong with that one.

[The Mountain That Posts]

GRRM is fine with STannis fighting and leading, but obviously him LEADING the charge and going straight up the ladder would NEVER happen in ANY realistic context. Since he's, you know, the king. And ladders get knocked over, have burning oil poured down them, etc.

Also, Stannis really isn't much of a zealot. He only plays that card because it gets him support.

[King of the Road]

GRRM is fine with STannis fighting and leading, but obviously him LEADING the charge and going straight up the ladder would NEVER happen in ANY realistic context. Since he's, you know, the king. And ladders get knocked over, have burning oil poured down them, etc.

Also, Stannis really isn't much of a zealot. He only plays that card because it gets him support.

Yeah but let's face it, this isn't a realistic context, it's a fantasy drama on TV and Stannis leads the attack so that the audience views him in direct contrast to Joffrey.

Also, Stannis believes he is the hero destined to save the world from The Others. I'm not suggesting he's a zealot when it comes to R'hllor, but he believes in himself, both in the show, and in the books.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Yeah but let's face it, this isn't a realistic context, it's a fantasy drama on TV and Stannis leads the attack so that the audience views him in direct contrast to Joffrey.

Fair enough. it's still jarring,

Also, Stannis believes he is the hero destined to save the world from The Others. I'm not suggesting he's a zealot when it comes to R'hllor, but he believes in himself, both in the show, and in the books.

Stannis doesn't truly believe he's AAR, he says so himself that he doesn't truly believe in any of that. It's a means to an ends for him, he doesn't believe he's supposed to save the world. Nor does he particularly WANT to save the world, he just does whatever is the "just" and "lawful" thing. *shrug*