[No Spoilers] On Daniel Minahan, Action Sequences and Mirrors - Part II

[Loras]

So last week after the premiere I created a thread to discuss the action in the episode. I felt the scenes in question (Sam’s rescue at the Fist and Barristan saving Dany from the manticore) were poorly executed with confused direction. I was not having a go at the director, I think that he can produce great shots and scenes but he does struggle with action. The latest episode, ‘Dark Wings, Dark Words’ strengthens my opinion.

Once again, during this episode there are two scenes that I believe are poorly directed and poorly executed. The first, unsurprisingly is the large action set piece of Brienne and Jaime duelling on the bridge. The aerial shots were expensive and reasonably impressive, but the close ups during the fight were poor once again. Minahan seems to be the kind of director who films a scene from every angle possible and only later selects the shots for the sequence. It suggests that he has little vision regarding these action sequences. Compare the fight scene to the beautiful shot of Brienne and Jaime walking through the fields from distance. Compare the fight scene to the opening sequence – my favourite in any ‘Thrones’ episode so far. The vision and skill that Minahan demonstrates in these scenes does not pass over to his lacklustre action scenes. For most of the fight scene I felt that I was a couple of seconds behind the action, creating a jarring effect akin to last week’s climax with the Manticore.

The other scene? Theon’s torture. This scene is handled extremely poorly in my opinion. This could be the worst single scene of the entire episode. Torture – I imagine, never having been tortured I am not an expert on such things – is intimate. It is about the pain within the body which would convince someone to talk. If this is true, please correct me if I am wrong, why were we given this scene from about a million different angles – including an aerial shot? It dragged me straight from the action and shaking my head at Minahan’s erratic style.

To add to this and I am not sure if it is a hallmark of Minahan or the writing, but what was with the number of scenes which were shot from the perspective of someone looking into a mirror. During the first episode of the season, we have Tyrion examining his scar – fine. I guess he probably should. Then in this episode we have a massive overkill: Joffrey and Cersei, Sansa and Shae and Joffrey and Margaery all have sections where people are talking to reflections. It is clumsy, heavy-handed and overdone in a 55 minute episode. Tell me someone else noticed the overuse of this technique? I was half expecting Iwan Rhoen’s boy to be told to fetch a mirror so that Theon could talk to himself!

So, what is my problem? I guess it is that a man who can produce such beautiful scenes – the Olenna scene was a feast for the eyes, the framing of Catelyn during her monologue was heartbreaking, Brandon’s dream – can drop the ball on so many occasions. I almost hope that he is not invited back to direct during the 4th season – or that if he is, he is given an episode without any action sequences at all.

So, following on from last week, how did you all feel about Minahan’s second (and final) outing of the season?

[insertname]

I agree with on the fight scene, there was too much cutting around there, but had no problem with the mirrors. Tbh, apart from Joff/Marg I didn't even particularly notice it.

[Sun]

I agree. The fight scene was very poorly done. Looked obviously staged.

[The King Of Limbs]

Just wanted to add my two cents regarding Minahan...while the fight was not as epic as it was in the books (and this is coming from a huge Jaime fan) I still enjoyed it for the most part.

I think Minahan is capable of doing decent action scenes, he did direct an episode of Deadwood that features a very highly praised fight scene!

[Shadow on the Wall]

I think you have a good point, and the directors in later episodes will probably do a better job with action scenes. That said, there were many things to like as well. I thought the scenes with Thoros were excellently done - love the way the camera move there. Mirrors were not an issue for me at all, although I do notice now that they were a bit overused.

Overall it was a respectable effort but not spectacular.

[Queen of Whores]

What's strange is that I believe Minahan directed 'A Golden Crown' in season 1, with the excellently done Bronn vs Ser Vardis fight scene. He sure seems to have dropped the ball massively on this one. I loved his directing for the rest of the episode though, but you raise a good point about the Theon scenes, but I never liked then in the first place. They felt like they shouldn't have been included and didn't flow well with the rest of the episode's pacing.

I still enjoy his directing, as 'You Win or You Die,' an episode of his in season 1, is my favorite episode of the series, but he just doesn't do that well sometimes with action. He won't be directing anymore episodes this season, at least, as there are a couple of great fight scenes coming up I imagine. I'll cry if he directs the Oberyn/Mountain fight though. Only a master should be allowed to direct that scene, possibly my favorite in the entire series and definitely one of the most memorable and shocking.

[SerMudz]

I really disliked the Jaime/Brienne duel, both the way it was directed and written - Brienne should have been visibly struggling to hang onto her life in that scene but instead they chose to make Brienne loook 'badass' (snore) and Jaime look truly pathetic. And the direction meant the whole fight was a chore to watch, not exciting at all.

[Nezzer]

The Jaime/Brienne fight wasn't nearly as good as in the book, but I liked it. If I were a non-reader, I think I'd've loved it. The torture scenes were great IMHO. I don't see anything wrong with them.

[shiola]

RhymeswithFreak-- you should edit your post regarding that future fight. This is a no spoiler thread. :)

I am not partial to action scenes in general so I don't really notice when they're done well or poorly, unless they're clearly awesome or glaringly terrible. And this one didn't strike me as terrible, just a bit too long.

I noticed the mirror thing, for sure.

[Throng of Mice and Mire]

I wasn't impressed by the handling of Brienne v Jamie. But it wasn't horrible.

I don't think the problem is with how its shot or edited. I think I just disliked the story the fight chose to tell.

The comparrison to the Bron/Vardis duel is a good one. Thats a terrifically done fight scene because its tells its own little story on top of what was at actually at stake in the result of the fight. Its a comparison of fighting styles with Bron retreating, giving ground, teasing the viewer that he is outmatched by the gallant knight. But slowly his strategy reveals itself to be working as the man in full plate slows down and tires. Its the classic rope-a-dope really (and is there a better fight story than the rumble in the jungle?) It actually echoes the conversation that Mormont has with Rhakaro (?) where one is arguing for speed and one for the protection of the full plate. Plus it also hits at major theme of ASOIAF. Having honor doesn't mean you'll win. Which would rather have, your honor or your life?etc. Point being, there's a lot going on in that fight.

What story does the Jamie/Brienne fight tell us? In a nutshell...Brienne is better with sword than the Kingslayer and is also really arrogant and nonchalant about it.

There is a story that fight can tell, that it just doesn't bother to.

[Loras]

I think you have a good point, and the directors in later episodes will probably do a better job with action scenes. That said, there were many things to like as well. I thought the scenes with Thoros were excellently done - love the way the camera move there. Mirrors were not an issue for me at all, although I do notice now that they were a bit overused.

Overall it was a respectable effort but not spectacular.

This really is my point about Minahan! How can he do such a wonderful job on some scenes: Breakfast with Olenna, Cat/Robb, Cat/Talisa, Brienne/Jaime. But then drop the ball so spectacularly on others!

What's strange is that I believe Minahan directed 'A Golden Crown' in season 1, with the excellently done Bronn vs Ser Vardis fight scene. He sure seems to have dropped the ball massively on this one. I loved his directing for the rest of the episode though, but you raise a good point about the Theon scenes, but I never liked then in the first place. They felt like they shouldn't have been included and didn't flow well with the rest of the episode's pacing.

I still enjoy his directing, as 'You Win or You Die,' an episode of his in season 1, is my favorite episode of the series, but he just doesn't do that well sometimes with action. He won't be directing anymore episodes this season, at least, as there are a couple of great fight scenes coming up I imagine. I'll cry if he directs the Oberyn/Mountain fight though. Only a master should be allowed to direct that scene, possibly my favorite in the entire series and definitely one of the most memorable and shocking.

I discussed 'You Win Or You Die' last week. I really don't like the direction of the Cersei-Ned confrontation scene, my favourite book scene. He uses a technique that he uses during the fight scene: the behind the foliage shot. It really ruins the moment for me.

My favourite director remains Alik Sakharov, the way that he captures 'What is dead can never die' is beautiful - particularly the baptism scene and the bait and switch with Tyrion.

Episode 6 spoiler:

I am looking forward to seeing his take on the Wildlings climbing the Wall!

[Myrish Swamp Thing]

I really disliked the Jaime/Brienne duel, both the way it was directed and written - Brienne should have been visibly struggling to hang onto her life in that scene but instead they chose to make Brienne loook 'badass' (snore) and Jaime look truly pathetic. And the direction meant the whole fight was a chore to watch, not exciting at all.

Jaime was malnourished and had his hands tied.

[The Mountain That Posts]

Jaime was malnourished and had his hands tied.

And he's the greatest knight in the seven kingdoms, more or less. So...

Yeah, honestly, the Jaime/Brienne fight was probably the worst action sequence in the show thus far outside of the Blackwater episode, which was just all around abysmal in a million different ways.

I noticed the mirror thing too. I would be fine with a reoccurring theme of Tyrion looking into mirrors and whatnot, that'd be fine. But with everyone? It was quite noticeable.

It's amazing to me that a show which has such beautiful, well crafted and excellently shot and written scenes at some points can have so much terribad to scenes at other parts. At least if the action scenes were consistently mediocre we'd be used to that and accept it as "budget probs, most likely" - but the fact this show gives us both really makes the good scenes become so much better than they really are and the worst scenes become so much worse.

Also, don't forget in A Golden Crown. I don't know if it was the director or what, but Viserys death scene was horribly done. And by that, I mean Jason and Lloyd's acting were brilliant - but the way Emillia handled her last line, the way the scene cut out after her line, the way they melted that gold in 2 seconds and the gold pouring? All absolutely HORRID.

[victim]

People forget that Brienne gave Loras a pounding in the melee, so for her to beat a shackled and malnourished Jaime is not really a problem. It's not like Jaime doesn't fight well at the beginning, he just tires very quickly.

It's also a lot harder to direct a fight scene than one with with little-to-no action or even movement, which is why he "dropped the ball" on this scene. I feel the biggest mistake was placing the fight on a bridge. It's a cool idea in theory but it allows minimal room for the characters and camera to move around freely and the fight couldn't be blocked perfectly as a result. Imagine how much better the fight would have been (and looked) if it was done in the area where Jaime has his "throne of cocks" line.

[Joyful Union]

And he's the greatest knight in the seven kingdoms, more or less. So...

Yeah, honestly, the Jaime/Brienne fight was probably the worst action sequence in the show thus far outside of the Blackwater episode, which was just all around abysmal in a million different ways.

I noticed the mirror thing too. I would be fine with a reoccurring theme of Tyrion looking into mirrors and whatnot, that'd be fine. But with everyone? It was quite noticeable.

It's amazing to me that a show which has such beautiful, well crafted and excellently shot and written scenes at some points can have so much terribad to scenes at other parts. At least if the action scenes were consistently mediocre we'd be used to that and accept it as "budget probs, most likely" - but the fact this show gives us both really makes the good scenes become so much better than they really are and the worst scenes become so much worse.

Also, don't forget in A Golden Crown. I don't know if it was the director or what, but Viserys death scene was horribly done. And by that, I mean Jason and Lloyd's acting were brilliant - but the way Emillia handled her last line, the way the scene cut out after her line, the way they melted that gold in 2 seconds and the gold pouring? All absolutely HORRID.

1. He says he's the greatest knight in the seven kingdoms. Havent seen too much evidence yet. (apart from a high body count at whispering wood) Also the chapter was from his POV in the book, embellishments are entirely possible. Also, it's incredibly unrealistic that man who has been malnourished and immobilized for months could be that good.

2. Blackwater was abysmal? I think you disagree with 99% of the people who've seen the episode there. By what measure could that episode be considered "abysmal"? For the wildfire alone, you could say that it wasnt abysmal.

3. What's wrong with a recurring theme in an episode?

4. What other terribad scenes?

5. Low quality gold melts very quickly.

[The Mountain That Posts]

1. He says he's the greatest knight in the seven kingdoms. Havent seen too much evidence yet. (apart from a high body count at whispering wood) Also the chapter was from his POV in the book, embellishments are entirely possible. Also, it's incredibly unrealistic that man who has been malnourished and immobilized for months could be that good.

2. Blackwater was abysmal? I think you disagree with 99% of the people who've seen the episode there. By what measure could that episode be considered "abysmal"? For the wildfire alone, you could say that it wasnt abysmal.

3. What's wrong with a recurring theme in an episode?

4. What other terribad scenes?

5. Low quality gold melts very quickly.

1. Read the books again. Jaime is one of the most praised and feared knights in the series, even AFTER a certain tragedy befalls him in ASoS. Sure he's cocky, but from what we know he wipes the floor with everyone in the books. The show really underplayed his significant skill, IMO. Not that this is a bad thing, since he ultimately doesn't fight many people in ASOIAF, but still noteable. I think if Eddard and Jaime had crossed swords in the book, Jaime would've easily won. Whereas in the show, it was fairly back and forth.

2. The wildfire was solid. But everything else in that episode was pukeworthy. The horrid special effects and totally forgettable battle scene? King Stannis being on the front lines and the first up a ladder? Those needless forced scenes between Bronn and Sandor? The horrible choppy feeling to the flow of the constant Cersei/Sansa scenes? On that note, some of the worst acting by both Lena and Sophie both? Oh, and not to mention Sandor's lack of menace making show viewers question why Sansa turned down his offer? How about Tyrion's grand plan in the show be "blow them up, then use a sewer line to sneak behind them lol" as opposed to legitimate tactics and strategy? Actually, how about the total absence of any military or strategic talk whatsoever? Hmm, how about that awful scene where Cersei nearly kills Tommen, which made all my nonbook reading friends ask me "who's that kid?" since the show doesn't establish things? How about Sandor's fear in fire, which while it makes sense, is another thing nonbook readers never caught on to? That whole episode was fucking awful, The National's cover of Rains of Castamere in the credits was easily the best part of that hour. All of this is my opinion.

3. OH, A BUNCH OF CHARACTERS LOOKING IN A MIRROR. WHAT AN INTERESTING AND UNIQUE THEME. *barf*

4. So many. So so many. The most noteworthy "terrible" fight scenes was Robb's fight with the wildlings, the first episode prologue with the White Walkers, Sandor's scene where he murders Sansa's would-be rapers and the Eddard/Jaime exchange up to the point where Jory and Ned's "two best swords" die in two seconds flat. (Eddard VS Jaime itself was great though, and the idea with the spear in Ned's leg? Brilliant, hats off to whomever came up with that instead of the horse)

5. It does, but not in two seconds flat.

[Hoo]

I am OK with the filming angles and pace of fights. It meets expectations, it's consistent throughout and I like that.

I thought the Jon/Halfhand fight was done well, and so were others.

As far as the Jaime/Brienne bridge fight, it lacked dramatic effect. Drama in a fight comes from sense of danger, someone is about to die. Here, it felt more like a sparing match with two characters chit chatting. That's my only knock on that scene.

[go joff go]

I think you guys went in deciding you weren't going to like the fight scenes from the previews b/c I thought it was pretty awesome and really well done for two actors without stunt men. Your expectations are just unrealistic IMO.

[The Flaying Man]

1. Read the books again. Jaime is one of the most praised and feared knights in the series, even AFTER a certain tragedy befalls him in ASoS. Sure he's cocky, but from what we know he wipes the floor with everyone in the books. The show really underplayed his significant skill, IMO. Not that this is a bad thing, since he ultimately doesn't fight many people in ASOIAF, but still noteable. I think if Eddard and Jaime had crossed swords in the book, Jaime would've easily won. Whereas in the show, it was fairly back and forth.

2. The wildfire was solid. But everything else in that episode was pukeworthy. The horrid special effects and totally forgettable battle scene? King Stannis being on the front lines and the first up a ladder? Those needless forced scenes between Bronn and Sandor? The horrible choppy feeling to the flow of the constant Cersei/Sansa scenes? On that note, some of the worst acting by both Lena and Sophie both? Oh, and not to mention Sandor's lack of menace making show viewers question why Sansa turned down his offer? How about Tyrion's grand plan in the show be "blow them up, then use a sewer line to sneak behind them lol" as opposed to legitimate tactics and strategy? Actually, how about the total absence of any military or strategic talk whatsoever? Hmm, how about that awful scene where Cersei nearly kills Tommen, which made all my nonbook reading friends ask me "who's that kid?" since the show doesn't establish things? How about Sandor's fear in fire, which while it makes sense, is another thing nonbook readers never caught on to? That whole episode was fucking awful, The National's cover of Rains of Castamere in the credits was easily the best part of that hour. All of this is my opinion.

3. OH, A BUNCH OF CHARACTERS LOOKING IN A MIRROR. WHAT AN INTERESTING AND UNIQUE THEME. *barf*

4. So many. So so many. The most noteworthy "terrible" fight scenes was Robb's fight with the wildlings, the first episode prologue with the White Walkers, Sandor's scene where he murders Sansa's would-be rapers and the Eddard/Jaime exchange up to the point where Jory and Ned's "two best swords" die in two seconds flat. (Eddard VS Jaime itself was great though, and the idea with the spear in Ned's leg? Brilliant, hats off to whomever came up with that instead of the horse)

5. It does, but not in two seconds flat.

If the show disgusts you so much, perhaps it would be more beneficial for your own happiness if you didn't watch it.

[Loras]

4. So many. So so many. The most noteworthy "terrible" fight scenes was Robb's fight with the wildlings, the first episode prologue with the White Walkers, Sandor's scene where he murders Sansa's would-be rapers and the Eddard/Jaime exchange up to the point where Jory and Ned's "two best swords" die in two seconds flat. (Eddard VS Jaime itself was great though, and the idea with the spear in Ned's leg? Brilliant, hats off to whomever came up with that instead of the horse)

You bring up some really good points here. I would disagree with you on the Sansa attempted rape scene, I thought it was brilliantly set up and quite horrifying. Though I agree the Sandor the Terminator was dreadful. It ruined a wonderful scene.

The wildings scene was also directed Minahan.

To be fair, I don't really know why the showrunners decided to bring him back after Season 1 - harsh I know.

As for the mirrors, it only counts as a theme if it has a point. If it doesn't have a point (and in this episode it did not) then it can't be considered a theme but rather an overused camera trick. Though I think that some of the blame for that should be attributed to Vanessa Taylor - she probably wrote the transition between the Joff scene and the Sansa scene into the script.

I am OK with the filming angles and pace of fights. It meets expectations, it's consistent throughout and I like that.

I thought the Jon/Halfhand fight was done well, and so were others.

As far as the Jaime/Brienne bridge fight, it lacked dramatic effect. Drama in a fight comes from sense of danger, someone is about to die. Here, it felt more like a sparing match with two characters chit chatting. That's my only knock on that scene.

I enjoyed Jon/Halfhand too - but it wasn't directed by Minahan. We have already praised his work on the Bronn/Vardis duel.

The problem with the fight is that there is a surplus of "arty" shots. The only one I actually enjoyed was the aerial shot because it added scope.