(Book Spoilerd) Are D+D deliberately slowing down stuff in King's Landing...

[teemo]

Yeah, the episodes GRRM wrote for Seasons 1 and 3 probably have stuff happen in them, but they're not gamechangers like 1x09 (Ned's death), 3x08 (Tyrion/Sansa wedding) or 3x09 (PW), so I think jumping on the idea that 4x02 has to be the PW because GRRM's writing it is wrongheaded.

4x02 would be a good place to put the PW, though. It might even get a Blackwater-style episode with all of the action set in KL.

:)

[Sir Noone Sword Of The Day]

Na im 90% sure the purple wedding will be next season. as for the scenes in KL, yea the scene between Joffery and Cercei was just a repeat of them in episode 1, but what im getting sick of is how much screen time shae is recieving, i hate her so much, she is so annoying, and she has not that much screen time but equal to if not more than other characters such as Stannis and Tormund

[~Shiera Seastar~]

Na im 90% sure the purple wedding will be next season. as for the scenes in KL, yea the scene between Joffery and Cercei was just a repeat of them in episode 1, but what im getting sick of is how much screen time shae is recieving, i hate her so much, she is so annoying, and she has not that much screen time but equal to if not more than other characters such as Stannis and Tormund

Lol! If the show is trying to stretch or slow down the stuffs in King's Landing so they can save some storylines for Season 4, you'll see more of Shae and most surely, Ros. Ugh! I'd rather see less of King's Landing stuffs if that's the case and see more of Arya/the Hound, BWB, and the Wall stuffs than those two. I'm bad. :P

[teemo]

Hopefully, Ros and Shae will get the axe ASAP...Ros is just cast meat waiting to be eaten.

[victim]

Yeah, the episodes GRRM wrote for Seasons 1 and 3 probably have stuff happen in them, but they're not gamechangers like 1x09 (Ned's death), 3x08 (Tyrion/Sansa wedding) or 3x09 (PW), so I think jumping on the idea that 4x02 has to be the PW because GRRM's writing it is wrongheaded.

4x02 would be a good place to put the PW, though. It might even get a Blackwater-style episode with all of the action set in KL.

Well, I got the impression it would be the PW episode because George usually writes later ones. A lot of the earlier episodes set up events, introduce characters and recap viewers, why would they waste George's talents on stuff like that when he could be writing the amazing things those episodes build to like Blackwater and The Bear and the Maiden Fair?

[teemo]

Well, I got the impression it would be the PW episode because George usually writes later ones. A lot of the earlier episodes set up events, introduce characters and recap viewers, why would they waste George's talents on stuff like that when he could be writing the amazing things those episodes build to like Blackwater and The Bear and the Maiden Fair?

good point...i'm really thinking its PW now. unless, is there anything else really all that significant around that could happen around that time?

[~Shiera Seastar~]

good point...i'm really thinking its PW now. unless, is there anything else really all that significant around that could happen around that time?

I'd throw out there the trial, but that's too early. So, PW most likely.

[Loras]

Well, I got the impression it would be the PW episode because George usually writes later ones. A lot of the earlier episodes set up events, introduce characters and recap viewers, why would they waste George's talents on stuff like that when he could be writing the amazing things those episodes build to like Blackwater and The Bear and the Maiden Fair?

I am secretly hoping that GRRM does not write the PW, as I don't really want to know who dunnit. If it is explicit in Martin's episode then to me it is pretty much canon.

Other possibilities could be the attack on the Wall and Ygritte's death (if she doesn't kick it in the finale).

On topic, I don't think that the writers have slowed the plot in KL. I also don't think that any of the scenes so far have been pointless. The questionable one being Sansa and Shae's dock disscussion. I think the main story lines in the capital this season will be Margaery and Cersei vying for control of Joffrey - I think Margaery will nearly be successful too until a game change in the finale after the Red Wedding. The other will be the interplay between Tyrion and Tywin. Sansa's storyline will link the two sets of characters.

I'm also really pleased with the exposure that the writers have given Margaery Tyrell in the first two episodes. She is going to be a major character going forward (at least through the end of the trials), we have to know what this character is about and how she works. I feel that after these two episodes we have a much better insight into her than during any of her appearances in Season 2.

[protar]

Just to go through the scenes in KL that were in E2:

• Cersei and Joffrey arguing over Margaery: We've already set-up the rivalry between Cersei and Marg as well as the strained relationship between Cersei and Joff. This doesn't progress either relationship in any way.
  
• Queen of Thorns: The one actually meaningful scene imo.
  
• Tyrion/Shae - More lovy-dovy Shae and Tyrion, more Shae inexplicably being Shae's BFF. Serves to slightly foreshadow the GW but imo it's unnecessary.
  
• Margaery/Joffrey: This did serve a purpose, showing Margaery getting more of a hold on Joff via phallic metaphors. But still no real plot development.
  

I think the main problem I have with these scenes is that while they do sometimes give character development, there's no plot around which the development is based. They're just meaningless conversations when all the development and interaction could be done around something meaningful. Episode 1 was mostly ok in this regard, as I felt the minor scenes did serve a point even if I didn't agree with them. So a hypothetical episode 1 and 2:

Episode 1:

• Queen of Thorn's arrival
  
• Tyrion/Cersei scene
  
• Tyrell family dinner with Joff + Cersei
  
• Ros speaks to Sansa on LF's behalf then reports to Varys
  
• Tywin and Tyrion fight
  

Episode 2:

• QOT meets Sansa (Changed my mind, E2 is good for this.)
  
• Joffrey/Margaery with crossbow
  
• Ros takes Dontos' role. Sansa tells her about proposal.
  
• Small Council meeting. Tywin proposes Tyrion marry Sansa.
  

To me that progresses the plot in KL much more, especially in episode two whilst also providing character interaction and giving screen time for all the major characters. I mean obviously it's all subjective, I just feel like not enough has happened so far.

[Timotheus]

4x02 would be awesome. People would still be expecting a slow episode, and would be blown away.. It feels a bit early though. Maybe Martin's setting up for the episode..

[Loras]

Just to go through the scenes in KL that were in E2:

• Cersei and Joffrey arguing over Margaery: We've already set-up the rivalry between Cersei and Marg as well as the strained relationship between Cersei and Joff. This doesn't progress either relationship in any way.
  
• Queen of Thorns: The one actually meaningful scene imo.
  
• Tyrion/Shae - More lovy-dovy Shae and Tyrion, more Shae inexplicably being Shae's BFF. Serves to slightly foreshadow the GW but imo it's unnecessary.
  
• Margaery/Joffrey: This did serve a purpose, showing Margaery getting more of a hold on Joff via phallic metaphors. But still no real plot development.
  

I think the main problem I have with these scenes is that while they do sometimes give character development, there's no plot around which the development is based. They're just meaningless conversations when all the development and interaction could be done around something meaningful. Episode 1 was mostly ok in this regard, as I felt the minor scenes did serve a point even if I didn't agree with them.

Regarding the Joffrey/Cersei scene, I thought it did progress the plot and have a purpose. We already know that the characters have a strained relationship, I agree, but this scene was much more about Cersei than it was about her relationship with her son. She is trying to find out how much influence she has lost over him, or what he thought about Margaery.

It is different to the dinner scene because it sets up Cersei's paranoia but also her insecurity regarding Margaery, rather than examining the differences between the two. In the context of the books (and assuming that the show will continue to follow them), the rivalry between Cersei and Margaery is a driving force for the events of King's Landing. This scene is only the first step towards that, in my opinion.

Regarding Joffrey/Margaery: that is a massive slice of plot development. This is the first time in the entire series that we have found a character that can influence Joffrey. That is huge, in my opinion. I think this could be the purpose of the mirrors that ended both scenes (very clumsy - but whatever), after the J/C scene we see him standing alone looking in the mirror. Whereas at the end of the Margaery scene, they are entwined looking in the mirror together. This is a massive shift in the goalposts.

Shae/Tyrion, I agree with everything that you have said.

The Olenna scene was just wonderful, so I don't think I could ever complain about it!

[protar]

I am secretly hoping that GRRM does not write the PW, as I don't really want to know who dunnit. If it is explicit in Martin's episode then to me it is pretty much canon.

Not necessarily. I mean by that logic the invented scenes in Blackwater are canon. Martin is capable of writing within the show canon. But in any case isn't it pretty much confirmed that the Tyrells did the deed? LF told Sansa what went down and they matched up with what we saw at the wedding in such a way that LF would have to be psychic to be lying.

Other possibilities could be the attack on the Wall and Ygritte's death (if she doesn't kick it in the finale).

This could well happen in the same episode although I'm betting she either days this season or E1 of S4.

On topic, I don't think that the writers have slowed the plot in KL. I also don't think that any of the scenes so far have been pointless. The questionable one being Sansa and Shae's dock disscussion.

You're referring just to Sansa/Shae and not the whole LF interaction following it up right? But I guess it does establish that Sansa still clings to idealism and in addition scenes don't just start out of nowhere. A few seconds of irrelevant discussion before the actual plot kicks in is fine. Scenes devoted entirely to idle conversation don't have a place in this show imo.

I think the main story lines in the capital this season will be Margaery and Cersei vying for control of Joffrey - I think Margaery will nearly be successful too until a game change in the finale after the Red Wedding. The other will be the interplay between Tyrion and Tywin. Sansa's storyline will link the two sets of characters.

Can't say I disagree here but each new scene for those plots needs to add something. Cersei and Joffrey arguing added nothing new to their dynamic.

I'm also really pleased with the exposure that the writers have given Margaery Tyrell in the first two episodes. She is going to be a major character going forward (at least through the end of the trials), we have to know what this character is about and how she works. I feel that after these two episodes we have a much better insight into her than during any of her appearances in Season 2.

I two am happy she's got exposure, just not what that exposure is. Episode 1 was mostly fine, I felt the dinner scene was good establishing both Cersei's rivalry with Joffrey and with Marg, as well as Marg's "spell" over Joff. But from that point we need something new.

[protar]

Regarding the Joffrey/Cersei scene, I thought it did progress the plot and have a purpose. We already know that the characters have a strained relationship, I agree, but this scene was much more about Cersei than it was about her relationship with her son. She is trying to find out how much influence she has lost over him, or what he thought about Margaery.

It is different to the dinner scene because it sets up Cersei's paranoia but also her insecurity regarding Margaery, rather than examining the differences between the two. In the context of the books (and assuming that the show will continue to follow them), the rivalry between Cersei and Margaery is a driving force for the events of King's Landing. This scene is only the first step towards that, in my opinion.

Eh, well personally I don't feel it added anything that hasn't already been added. With the time constraints we have I don't think we have time to see every tiny baby step in inter-character relationships. All this can be hinted subtly throughout actual plot developments and the loss of control over Joffrey which will come to a head when he outright defies commands.

Regarding Joffrey/Margaery: that is a massive slice of plot development. This is the first time in the entire series that we have found a character that can influence Joffrey. That is huge, in my opinion. I think this could be the purpose of the mirrors that ended both scenes (very clumsy - but whatever), after the J/C scene we see him standing alone looking in the mirror. Whereas at the end of the Margaery scene, they are entwined looking in the mirror together. This is a massive shift in the goalposts.

I do agree that this scene developed the plot, which is why I kept it in my hypothetical outline. If it's just one idle talking scene that also develops the plot then that's not so bad. But when it's amongst 3 or 4 such scenes it just feels like wasted time.

But I do see the foreshadowing and development here. I liked Margaery's "you are the King" which will undoubtedly tie directly into Joffrey's "I AM THE KING!" later on.

[Peasant Rebel Leader]

It's good to have one setting in the series where not every single little thing has to mean something big. The King's Landing setting is good for the show because there are a few characters assembled at one place. It's much more similar to a 'classical' drama such as Downton Abbey and I feel that Game of Thrones needs this to be more than a Clip Show. (The next time we will have something similar is at the Wall with Stannis, Jon, Sam and maybe Yara). So these scenes are not pointless, but reinforce that King's Landing is the central setting and provide a more natural flow of storytelling. Compare that to f.e. the very straightforwardness of Arya's story or Stannis/Davos. And lastly, to me, the goal of the series is not to put all scenes from the books in, but to provide a good show, and in my mind, the television medium needs those little scenes in King's Landing.

[Lord Varys]

The show already slowed down events last season. Apparently nobody had realized that. I'm speaking of the whole subplot around Littlefinger's meeting with Catelyn and him only setting his eyes on Sansa after he has returned to KL after the Blackwater.

In the book, Littlefinger is only fixated on Sansa, and he sent his note to Sansa immediately after he got Tyrion's fake offer to send him to the Vale and name him Lord of Harrenhal. Obviously Littlefinger intended to take Sansa with him through Dontos when he left KL for the Vale in ACoK. Since that did not happen in the book, Littlefinger could only continue his Sansa plot in ASoS. But the outline was still there in ACoK.

In the show none of this ever happens. Littlefinger only starts to look for a way to get Sansa out this season.

It has already been indicated that Tywin is soon going to send Littlefinger to the Vale. He intends to take Sansa with him, of course. But Sansa will declare as soon as she is offered her Tyrell match by Olenna and Margaery. Since that didn't happen in episode 2, this subplot is also going to be become somewhat greater than before. In fact, Littlefinger might not even leave for the Vale this early since he has first be turned down by Sansa, find out about the Tyrell marriage plot, and tell Tywin about it to make way for the eventual Tyrion-Sansa marriage.

The show runners also seem to try to get somewhere with this whole Shae-Sansa-Tyrion triangle, and the Ros subplot.

The additional scenes with Joffrey, Cersei and Margaery seem to make way both to the eventual Cersei-Margaery-bitch-fight and to the evolution of Cersei's descent into madness. The most interesting thing about the Margaery-Joffrey relationship to me is whether they are going to make Margaery the eventual victim of Joffrey's sadism (after which it's decided to get rid of Joff), or whether they will try to make Joff a more tragic character by having him truly fall for Margaery when it has already been decided by her and the Queen of Thorns to get rid of him. Episode 2 very much indicated as much...

But anyway, there is no need to rush things right now. The Red Wedding is enough climax for one season, and they really seem to set up the forced Sansa-Tyrion marriage as a huge personal tragedy for all the characters involved (Sansa, Tyrion, Shae). Perhaps even for Loras, since he might be forced to enter the Kingsguard afterwards.

[protar]

The show already slowed down events last season. Apparently nobody had realized that. I'm speaking of the whole subplot around Littlefinger's meeting with Catelyn and him only setting his eyes on Sansa after he has returned to KL after the Blackwater.

In the book, Littlefinger is only fixated on Sansa, and he sent his note to Sansa immediately after he got Tyrion's fake offer to send him to the Vale and name him Lord of Harrenhal. Obviously Littlefinger intended to take Sansa with him through Dontos when he left KL for the Vale in ACoK. Since that did not happen in the book, Littlefinger could only continue his Sansa plot in ASoS. But the outline was still there in ACoK.

In the show none of this ever happens. Littlefinger only starts to look for a way to get Sansa out this season.

It has already been indicated that Tywin is soon going to send Littlefinger to the Vale. He intends to take Sansa with him, of course. But Sansa will declare as soon as she is offered her Tyrell match by Olenna and Margaery. Since that didn't happen in episode 2, this subplot is also going to be become somewhat greater than before. In fact, Littlefinger might not even leave for the Vale this early since he has first be turned down by Sansa, find out about the Tyrell marriage plot, and tell Tywin about it to make way for the eventual Tyrion-Sansa marriage.

The show runners also seem to try to get somewhere with this whole Shae-Sansa-Tyrion triangle, and the Ros subplot.

The additional scenes with Joffrey, Cersei and Margaery seem to make way both to the eventual Cersei-Margaery-bitch-fight and to the evolution of Cersei's descent into madness. The most interesting thing about the Margaery-Joffrey relationship to me is whether they are going to make Margaery the eventual victim of Joffrey's sadism (after which it's decided to get rid of Joff), or whether they will try to make Joff a more tragic character by having him truly fall for Margaery when it has already been decided by her and the Queen of Thorns to get rid of him. Episode 2 very much indicated as much...

But anyway, there is no need to rush things right now. The Red Wedding is enough climax for one season, and they really seem to set up the forced Sansa-Tyrion marriage as a huge personal tragedy for all the characters involved (Sansa, Tyrion, Shae). Perhaps even for Loras, since he might be forced to enter the Kingsguard afterwards.

The slowing down of the Sansa/LF thing is fine, because it allows them to speed it up later on. Rather than having two seasons waiting for Sansa to be shipped off, we just have one season condensing all of that.

I know there's no need to rush things, but there's no need to deliberately slow things down either. Which is what I feel they're doing.

[Lord Varys]

Yes, because they don't want to get to the Purple Wedding this season. And because they want to make Margaery Tyrell a major character.

The Sansa plot could have easily been in season 2. In fact, the whole mystery about who might be the person behind Dontos (if there was any) could have been interesting. There would have been no need to put this plot in the spotlight in season 2, all they needed to do was establish it. Instead, they felt they had to continue the Littlefinger-real-Cat obsession thing, which was set up clumsily and had not a very good climax or resolution of any sort.

But we have also to keep in mind that the cast is really exploding this season. Rushing things along while introducing new characters could very well make it impossible for the non-book audience to follow the story. Not just at KL but also in all the other locations as well.

[protar]

Yes, because they don't want to get to the Purple Wedding this season. And because they want to make Margaery Tyrell a major character.

The Sansa plot could have easily been in season 2. In fact, the whole mystery about who might be the person behind Dontos (if there was any) could have been interesting. There would have been no need to put this plot in the spotlight in season 2, all they needed to do was establish it. Instead, they felt they had to continue the Littlefinger-real-Cat obsession thing, which was set up clumsily and had not a very good climax or resolution of any sort.

But we have also to keep in mind that the cast is really exploding this season. Rushing things along while introducing new characters could very well make it impossible for the non-book audience to follow the story. Not just at KL but also in all the other locations as well.

But surely if they're slowing down the plot artificially to push back the PW to S4, then that suggests that at an ordinary pace the PW would fit in, suggesting that it would actually be logical to put it as the finale. Now obviously I don't know what goes through D+D's head but I would wager that they agreed the PW wouldn't be this season and then worked the entire plot around that fact. But what they should be doing imo is plotting the KL story out from the start with an open mind, and seeing where it ends.

Personally I think they were right to not have the Dontos plot in S2. I just don't think it's compelling enough to cover 2 whole seasons. In the books things are different, readers tend to be more patient than watchers. However I also agree that the LF/Cat stuff were stupid, but the two are not really intrinsically linked.

KL has one new character introduced in this season, and one who is very memorable at that. I don't think that making the plot a bit faster would affect anyone's ability to remember the QOT. Personally I would have cast Mace and maybe even bought Oberyn in late into the season, but I can see why they've been delayed.

[RobertOfTheHouseBaratheon]

Why would anyone want the PW in this series. RW is ep 09 there's not enough time to do it justice. Also the series really should end with the Lannisters sitting pretty letting viewers simmer over the RW for a year till the next season.

[Lord Varys]

Littlefinger's obsession with Cat and the lack of the Dontos plot in season 2 are intrinsically linked because it would make no sense for Littlefinger to abdicate/save Sansa, if he actually is still hoping to gain the affection of her mother.

As to the Dontos plot in season 2:

If they had kept Littlefinger at KL where he belonged until after Renly's death. If he had been made a Lannister envoy by both Cersei and Tyrion after they learned of Renly's demise and the fact that the Tyrells did not declare for Stannis, then the Dontos plot could have been introduced rather late in season 2. All they would have needed to do was to postpone Littlefinger's note until he left KL for Highgarden. There could have been only one or two scenes with Dontos in season 2.

Right now it's still possible that season 3 might actually show us the gestation process of the poisoning plot. It was already agreed upon between Olenna and Littlefinger in ASoS how this was going to happen, all the Queen of Thorns did was to ensure that they were intending to do the right thing (that's why they were questioning Sansa).

And as I've tried to tell before, they seem to continue they habit of inventing additional scenes. There will be a scene with Varys and Olenna, Olenna and Tywin, Tywin and Pycelle, hopefully scenes involving Tywin and Cersei privately, and so on. And finally season 3 is going to give us stuff severely missed in season 2: Varys telling Tyrion how he got cut in Myr.