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Lord Barristan

(Book Spoilers) Does it feel a bit rushed to you?

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i kinda have to agree with the mountain. I was watching this episode with a friend who has not read the book, and when jojen reed said "we have traveled far to find you brandon, and we have a much longer way go" he sarcasticly cracked "oh, another story arc with nothing but traveling and talking for an entire season... now im really on the edge of my seat!"

I thought the same thing. Watching Arya, J&B, Jon, Sam and all the rest do nothing but walk somewhere for several episodes probably wouldn't be appealing to the nonreading audience. So I think D&D made a smart move when/(if) they removed most of the travelling and focused on the more important parts. We had enough of this in s2 with Catelyn and LF teleporting all over the place

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they did break some new ground in this episode by allowing the characters to hold and fire a crossbow while talking, deviating from the usual walking and talking/sitting and talking formula.

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I think the show is clearly better at pacing now than it was when it first started. Of course it's always going to be rushed in some sense because there's a ton of characters and storylines to show so it's absolutely impossible to make it flow calmly, but they are doing better at it now, despite having more characters to show than in the first season.

i kinda have to agree with the mountain. I was watching this episode with a friend who has not read the book, and when jojen reed said "we have traveled far to find you brandon, and we have a much longer way go" he sarcasticly cracked "oh, another story arc with nothing but traveling and talking for an entire season... now im really on the edge of my seat!"

He's never heard the age old saying about storytelling "it's not the end that matters but the journey" I take it? :)

Plot wise, it's all moving QUITE fast - but since they cut off SO MUCH of the meat off the bone and we're left with little to no details or discussions in show, everything feels super fast paced and individual scenes just don't FEEL important. On a lesser scale, however, individual scenes and ESPECIALLY individual character arks seem to be horribly slow, feel drawn out and overall feel like they're going no where.

In what sense do you feel that there's no discussions in the show? I can mention a ton of them just in the two episodes in the third season, as well as plenty of detail both visible and subtle. Therefor I take it that I'm not getting your point.

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He's never heard the age old saying about storytelling "it's not the end that matters but the journey" I take it? :)

I think that was the point, that we dont need another journey that consists of nothing but walking and expositional dialogue. Its getting pretty old in this series considering we have already seen this formula several times in season-spanning arcs: Jon snow from the point where he left castle black, stopped at crasters for an episode, back to walking unil he got caught by ygritte, kills qohren while traveling with the wildlings, meets mance, then goes back to traveling except this time he is following mance instead of mormont. Sam replaces him as the PoV character in the "Walking with the Night Watch arc". Arya travelling with Yoren and the night watch recruits. Jamie spends an entire season inprisoned, and after he is freed he spends 5 episodes traveling with brienne where almost every scene consists of him making funny, provoking remarks to brienne and brienne telling him to shut up.

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I think the show is clearly better at pacing now than it was when it first started. Of course it's always going to be rushed in some sense because there's a ton of characters and storylines to show so it's absolutely impossible to make it flow calmly, but they are doing better at it now, despite having more characters to show than in the first season.

You really think so? I mean, SOME things in the first season could've been better paced. if it was more episodes, but about the same amount of Jon and Dany scenes spread out, we'd have a real sense that Dany was seven months pregnant and that Jon had been training at the wall a long time - in the show, we kind of feel like Dany's only two months pregnant and Jon's been there a week. And then other things, like Arya chasing a cat one episode and then still chasing the cat the next episode(despite it being weeks lol), and also the ALMOST awkwardly fast pace of some events(tourney, everything post-Ned's imprisonment war wise)

But as a whole I feel like the first season did a pretty solid job. Making season one perfection simply would've been a matter of:

1.) Higher budget, therefore better effects, fights, more actors to cast important roles NOW rather than later(Roose Bolton, Edmure and Brynden, etc.) and all that jazz.

2.) No gratuitous sex/nudity scenes for shits and giggles

3.) two or three more episodes

4.) not assuming the audience is idiots and cutting out ALL military/strategic discussion

If they had done all this, I think season one would have been perfect. Obviously it's not what happened though.

In what sense do you feel that there's no discussions in the show? I can mention a ton of them just in the two episodes in the third season, as well as plenty of detail both visible and subtle. Therefor I take it that I'm not getting your point.

He had a lot to say.

He had a lot of nothing to say.

- "Eulogy" by Tool.

In a literal sense, those episodes were pretty much 95% talking.

But was anything TRULY discussed? Everything was shallow, all the meat was cut from the bone and there was no substance, etc. My nonbook reading friends are confused: They thought Stannis was killed and completely out of the picture(apparently forgetting the last ep of season 2), they have no idea if Robb Stark is winning or losing, they have no idea what the bloody hell is happening in the North(with the ironmen in general, and Theon/Winterfell specifically), etc.

So much is discussed, but so little is actually SAID in the context of the show... but the story isn't supposed to be a soapopera with loads of romanticism and tits and hilariously unrealistic gore/death scenes. A Song of Ice & Fire is, at it's core, about war and how war affects EVERYONE and at the end of the day doesn't matter. The show's 100% neglect of everything and anything military/strategy talk is seriously negatively affecting EVERYONEs view of the show.

The thing I love with dialogue in these books, especially in A Clash of Kings, is that there really isn't THAT much dialogue. But damn near everything that IS said from one character to another, is essential in some way or another. But the show waters down EVERYTHING. For whatever reason, they think "shocking" homosexual blowjob scenes, tits, constant swearing and overly cheesy gore is appropriate YET they think toning down EVERYTHING plot wise and completely removing all discussion of war is a good move? They need to get their priorities right.

Do you understand me now? You don't have to agree, I just want to make sure i'm being clear.

Edit to add:

I think that was the point, that we dont need another journey that consists of nothing but walking and expositional dialogue. Its getting pretty old in this series considering we have already seen this formula several times in season-spanning arcs: Jon snow from the point where he left castle black, stopped at crasters for an episode, back to walking unil he got caught by ygritte, kills qohren while traveling with the wildlings, meets mance, then goes back to traveling except this time he is following mance instead of mormont. Sam replaces him as the PoV character in the "Walking with the Night Watch arc". Arya travelling with Yoren and the night watch recruits. Jamie spends an entire season inprisoned, and after he is freed he spends 5 episodes traveling with brienne where almost every scene consists of him making funny, provoking remarks to brienne and brienne telling him to shut up.

This. So much this. Between David's HORRIBLE X-Men movies(hardcore X-Men fan here) and Game of Thrones, i'm under the impression that D&D are the definition of incompetent. Oh well, shame there's enough quality to keep me coming back for more.

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I think that was the point, that we dont need another journey that consists of nothing but walking and expositional dialogue. Its getting pretty old in this series considering we have already seen this formula several times in season-spanning arcs: Jon snow from the point where he left castle black, stopped at crasters for an episode, back to walking unil he got caught by ygritte, kills qohren while traveling with the wildlings, meets mance, then goes back to traveling except this time he is following mance instead of mormont. Sam replaces him as the PoV character in the "Walking with the Night Watch arc". Arya travelling with Yoren and the night watch recruits. Jamie spends an entire season inprisoned, and after he is freed he spends 5 episodes traveling with brienne where almost every scene consists of him making funny, provoking remarks to brienne and brienne telling him to shut up.

I'm fine with people having differing opinions but I just don't see the point to this. What does it matter if someone talks while travelling or while sitting in a castle? There's not less special events for the travelers than there are for those that remain in the same area.

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I'm not sure whether there's a problem with the pacing. I thought it was going good, except maybe Dany seemed to have progressed too far but I'm not worried.

What I am unsure of is putting so many storylines in an episode. Episode 1 had too much I think and episode 2 was good but still flicked between groups too quickly. I think most people agree ep09 last season was really good, with it all focused on the city. Why can't they do that more? A lot of the characters don't need to be seen to do things at the same time. They could combine, storylines into larger bursts. Say have an episode being 60% Dany & Jon, another KL & Robb, some where it's mainly Arya and some where it's mainly Jaime

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I'm fine with people having differing opinions but I just don't see the point to this. What does it matter if someone talks while travelling or while sitting in a castle? There's not less special events for the travelers than there are for those that remain in the same area.

The problem is that they keep teasing the audience and building up to events that never happen, or they happen but we never see it. If you look at Jons story arc, there has been very little actual character development and dramatic tension since he left Castle Black. They are basicly just showing us traveling for the sake of traveling. They spent an entire season getting to the fist of the first men, once they get there they tease with the upcoming battle with the white walkers wich we dont get to fucking see, and after that they are off walking all the way back to the wall. There and back again, for nothing.

the same thing goes for Jamie. they dont need to put two scenes of jamie and brienne in every episode when each scene is basicly identical; jamie being mean and teasing brienne, brienne tells him to shut up and walk.

do they keep putting these scenes in to remind us that jamie and brienne are still traveling? its just an obvious teller for the audience that something is going to happen to them on the way, otherwise they would just teleport them like they did with catelyn and LF.

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i kinda have to agree with the mountain. I was watching this episode with a friend who has not read the book, and when jojen reed said "we have traveled far to find you brandon, and we have a much longer way go" he sarcasticly cracked "oh, another story arc with nothing but traveling and talking for an entire season... now im really on the edge of my seat!"

the second season got away with its wierd pacing because the audience enjoyed Tyrions scenes/Dinklages acting so much. This season does have some really good acting so far, but it doesnt make a big difference when the audience doesnt know anything about these new characters and cant really relate to them regardless of how well acted they are.

This is a brilliant point very well put.

I keep coming back to the character of Margaery. I know that we met her for the first time in S2, but I never felt that I really knew anything about her. I didn't know where she came from, I didn't really know how competent she was. All I really knew about her was that she wanted to be 'THE Queen'.

After the first 2 episodes of this season I feel like I have actually been given the time to get to know this character. I know more about what she stands for and I know more about where she came from. Ok we haven't been given any backstory on the character yet, but I can root for her - because she goes and comforts orphans or because she is nice to Sansa.

I think that this is where they really dropped the ball on the Stannis arc during S" - though it was somewhat rectified by his brilliant monologue about Storm's End.

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What I am unsure of is putting so many storylines in an episode. Episode 1 had too much I think and episode 2 was good but still flicked between groups too quickly. I think most people agree ep09 last season was really good, with it all focused on the city. Why can't they do that more? A lot of the characters don't need to be seen to do things at the same time. They could combine, storylines into larger bursts. Say have an episode being 60% Dany & Jon, another KL & Robb, some where it's mainly Arya and some where it's mainly Jaime

This is something they should've been doing from Ned's imprisonment in season one onwards. Seriously. It's what ALL of season two should've been, bursts.

Combine this with Maestor Ruin's comments about needless traveling, all teasing and no pay offs and the show belitting the audiences intelligence by feeling the need to almost REMIND the audience who people are...

Ugh. I really need to get into writing TV. I can do better than so many hacks out there currently writing TV. *grumble grumble* /complaint in general, not just about Game of Thrones specifically.

I think that this is where they really dropped the ball on the Stannis arc during S" - though it was somewhat rectified by his brilliant monologue about Storm's End.

Stannis's story was, single handily, perhaps my favorite part of season two. Even if making Davos hand then makes little sense, since it means it was his failure that the Blackwater Battle failed.

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You really think so? I mean, SOME things in the first season could've been better paced. if it was more episodes, but about the same amount of Jon and Dany scenes spread out, we'd have a real sense that Dany was seven months pregnant and that Jon had been training at the wall a long time - in the show, we kind of feel like Dany's only two months pregnant and Jon's been there a week. And then other things, like Arya chasing a cat one episode and then still chasing the cat the next episode(despite it being weeks lol), and also the ALMOST awkwardly fast pace of some events(tourney, everything post-Ned's imprisonment war wise)

But as a whole I feel like the first season did a pretty solid job. Making season one perfection simply would've been a matter of:

1.) Higher budget, therefore better effects, fights, more actors to cast important roles NOW rather than later(Roose Bolton, Edmure and Brynden, etc.) and all that jazz.

2.) No gratuitous sex/nudity scenes for shits and giggles

3.) two or three more episodes

4.) not assuming the audience is idiots and cutting out ALL military/strategic discussion

If they had done all this, I think season one would have been perfect. Obviously it's not what happened though.

Yes, I do. I'd even go so far to say that it seemed to be the prevailing opinion since my biggest memory of the discussions about the early part of season 2 was that that people thought the pacing and transitions between storylines were so much better. Not that it gives the opinion any more credence (opinions are opinions), I'm just showing that it's not an uncommon one.

1. Higher budget is something you can always wish for but it's pretty pointless since it just won't happen. The show was already hugely expensive.

2. The nudity didn't bother me. There's lots of it in the books (actually more detailed than on the show) and I don't get neither upset or very aroused by that, I just take it as another context among many others.

3. Again a nice wish that just won't happen. D&D has said many times that they would like more time but they can't keep the same quality of production if they stretch it further.

4. Apart from that they hid some surprises I guess they go less on it due to that they aren't showing that much of the battles. I don't get the conclusion that they would supposedly do this because they think the audience is stupid. That make no sense to me given how much they expect the audience to piece together in the overall story. A non-reader really needs to be alert to grasp everything (looking on this board even readers fail to get a good deal of it).

He had a lot to say.

He had a lot of nothing to say.

- "Eulogy" by Tool.

In a literal sense, those episodes were pretty much 95% talking.

But was anything TRULY discussed? Everything was shallow, all the meat was cut from the bone and there was no substance, etc. My nonbook reading friends are confused: They thought Stannis was killed and completely out of the picture(apparently forgetting the last ep of season 2), they have no idea if Robb Stark is winning or losing, they have no idea what the bloody hell is happening in the North(with the ironmen in general, and Theon/Winterfell specifically), etc.

So much is discussed, but so little is actually SAID in the context of the show... but the story isn't supposed to be a soapopera with loads of romanticism and tits and hilariously unrealistic gore/death scenes. A Song of Ice & Fire is, at it's core, about war and how war affects EVERYONE and at the end of the day doesn't matter. The show's 100% neglect of everything and anything military/strategy talk is seriously negatively affecting EVERYONEs view of the show.

The thing I love with dialogue in these books, especially in A Clash of Kings, is that there really isn't THAT much dialogue. But damn near everything that IS said from one character to another, is essential in some way or another. But the show waters down EVERYTHING. For whatever reason, they think "shocking" homosexual blowjob scenes, tits, constant swearing and overly cheesy gore is appropriate YET they think toning down EVERYTHING plot wise and completely removing all discussion of war is a good move? They need to get their priorities right.

Do you understand me now? You don't have to agree, I just want to make sure i'm being clear.

I see what you're saying, but I don't agree. The non-readers I know don't have any problems following the things you mention either. Even your own description of them makes it look like they just aren't paying attention to what's being presented. Stannis was very obviously not killed, Robb's success is supposed to be hard to get because he doesn't even get it himself ("I win every battle but somehow I'm losing the war"), what's going on in the North is mostly said right out (even Theon says exactly what he's done and why he does it). Even with this season there's tons of hints that show where Theon is and who has him, but it requires you to think a bit (which is mostly exactly how the books tend to work with mysteries).

I don't think you can watch a show like this and don't really try to grasp everything. Again this goes even for readers, although they might be foiling themselves by being bad at adapting their thinking from what the book says to what they are actually being shown. For example I don't know if I saw anyone in the discussion about Littlefinger talking to Sansa actually grasp the fact that they are making a parallel to Littlefinger and Eddard (hopefully some did and I just didn't read it all). Some were just so stuck on that Littlefinger talked himself instead of using pawns like in the books.

This. So much this. Between David's HORRIBLE X-Men movies(hardcore X-Men fan here) and Game of Thrones, i'm under the impression that D&D are the definition of incompetent. Oh well, shame there's enough quality to keep me coming back for more.

This wasn't directed to me but it made me wonder. What has David written more than "Wolverine" when it comes to X-Men? As far as I know that was his only thing, plus that his script was apparently mutilated quite severely from what he actually wrote before it got used.

As for them being incompetent, I'd say that it's a pretty hard thing to say seeing how this adaptation is one of the hardest to do that I've ever come across and they've managed to make it a huge hit that's known for quality (unlike for example True Blood which is also a big hit but doesn't have that general quality image). Not that popularity says much in terms of individual taste but it is related to competence and it's imo at least as relevant as using friends that don't pay attention as arguments.

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The problem is that they keep teasing the audience and building up to events that never happen, or they happen but we never see it. If you look at Jons story arc, there has been very little actual character development and dramatic tension since he left Castle Black. They are basicly just showing us traveling for the sake of traveling. They spent an entire season getting to the fist of the first men, once they get there they tease with the upcoming battle with the white walkers wich we dont get to fucking see, and after that they are off walking all the way back to the wall. There and back again, for nothing.

the same thing goes for Jamie. they dont need to put two scenes of jamie and brienne in every episode when each scene is basicly identical; jamie being mean and teasing brienne, brienne tells him to shut up and walk.

do they keep putting these scenes in to remind us that jamie and brienne are still traveling? its just an obvious teller for the audience that something is going to happen to them on the way, otherwise they would just teleport them like they did with catelyn and LF.

Then the story might not be for those people. Even in the books you have several battles not being described, or being described very briefly, and it will of course be more so in a TV show. The point behind that is that the violence isn't the important part in itself, it's the result that's the real point. That doesn't mean that I completely dismiss your point as it has relevance. I'm just showing that the original story isn't very different if you count the differences of the mediums. The battle at the Fist isn't described much at all in the book, it's mainly recollected in hindsight, and there's no budget issues going on.

As for Brienne and Jaime I don't have a clue what you mean. Two scenes in every episode? They weren't even in the first episode. The two scenes they had this time were also not at all similar. The first one was them walking around and talking, and they meet a farmer where Brienne has to make a choice between honorably risking security or doing a bad thing. The second has Jaime trying to kill her in a fight scene and they get caught due to Brienne's previous choice. How you can describe those two as identical and just containing Jaime being mean and Brienne telling him to walk is completely beyond me.

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If a certain story arc doesnt translate to TV very well they should cut it. i feel like the whole jon/nights watch story has been way too over-emphazised at this point because it has not been very rewarding, lacks a sense of direction and is basicly just there so we can have the battle of castle black and jon becoming the commander in the next season. Sams scene in this episode was another great example of a scene that lacked tone and purpose. Did we need another scene where Sam is belittled for being fat? it had the potential to expand the relationships between the characters, when sam started to cry and asked why the left him, i thought it was going to lead to a genuine moment of character bonding, but instead it ends with Ed (or whats his name again) cracking another "Youre fat and useless" line. So was this scene supposed to make us laught? i dont know what to feel, give me a tone D&D.

and now i have stumbled upon another problem. it feels like the characters are repeating themselves way too much. I have never heard Ed deliver a single line that is not basicly "yo sam you suck, and i tell you this because were bros", delivered with the exact same tone and speech-rythm. it was funny the first couple of times, now its just starting to feel annoying and old. This even applies to central characters like Joffery, since he became king i dont think we have had a single scene between him and cerscei (and some other characters, namely tyrion in S2) that doesnt end with him saying something that translates to "IM AM TEH KING I CAN DO WHAT I WANT DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO OK?". i know this is intentional to show us how Cerscei is losing control over joffery and realizing that she has created a monster that she cant control, but it becomes repetitive and leaves the impression that the character only has one note to play.

in season 2 i felt like i was going to throw up everytime daenerys went into a dramatic rant about being the blood of the dragon and how she would conquer the world, whenever someone didnt give her what she wanted.

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A man named William Shakespear once said: "Brevity is the soul of wit"

It basicly means dont waste my fucking time

To be fair, that should be applied to the books far more than the show. If ASOS's adaptation is already striking people as slow and meandering, I shudder to think how AFFC?ADWD will fair.

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im not sure if i agree, in the books almost every chapter has a set tone and touches some sort of emotional heartstring, it never feels "empty" or like a waste of time, unlike some story arcs in the show.

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im not sure if i agree, in the books almost every chapter has a set tone and touches some sort of emotional heartstring, it never feels "empty" or like a waste of time, unlike some story arcs in the show.

Oh, I think we definitely disagree on this point. :)

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Arya is my favourite character in the show (and Maisie Williams is my fave actor) so i really want to see her featured a lot this year. I just hope they dont have her standing around during the scenes with the Brotherhood. I actually want to see her interact with Thoros and Beric instead of standing in the background as they talk to each other. She doesnt meet Beric until episode 4 and the trial happens in the next episode so they will have to feature some scenes between the brotherhood/arya/hound to slow things down instead of just going straight from meeting beric to the fight. I really want a one on one scene between Beric and Arya just because Maisie has had great chemistry with everyone she has worked with.

I also hope they dont have The Hound take over her scenes with the Brotherhood (obviously he will take centre stage during his trial) and hope Melisandre shows up after she has gone instead of taking over her story.

I would also love to see her at the Twins and would love for the episode to end with the Hound hitting her so everyone thinks she has been killed. If they dont feature her at the RW then i will be very disappointed

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If a certain story arc doesnt translate to TV very well they should cut it. i feel like the whole jon/nights watch story has been way too over-emphazised at this point because it has not been very rewarding, lacks a sense of direction and is basicly just there so we can have the battle of castle black and jon becoming the commander in the next season. Sams scene in this episode was another great example of a scene that lacked tone and purpose. Did we need another scene where Sam is belittled for being fat? it had the potential to expand the relationships between the characters, when sam started to cry and asked why the left him, i thought it was going to lead to a genuine moment of character bonding, but instead it ends with Ed (or whats his name again) cracking another "Youre fat and useless" line. So was this scene supposed to make us laught? i dont know what to feel, give me a tone D&D.

and now i have stumbled upon another problem. it feels like the characters are repeating themselves way too much. I have never heard Ed deliver a single line that is not basicly "yo sam you suck, and i tell you this because were bros", delivered with the exact same tone and speech-rythm. it was funny the first couple of times, now its just starting to feel annoying and old. This even applies to central characters like Joffery, since he became king i dont think we have had a single scene between him and cerscei (and some other characters, namely tyrion in S2) that doesnt end with him saying something that translates to "IM AM TEH KING I CAN DO WHAT I WANT DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO OK?". i know this is intentional to show us how Cerscei is losing control over joffery and realizing that she has created a monster that she cant control, but it becomes repetitive and leaves the impression that the character only has one note to play.

in season 2 i felt like i was going to throw up everytime daenerys went into a dramatic rant about being the blood of the dragon and how she would conquer the world, whenever someone didnt give her what she wanted.

I don't know if this was supposed to be an answer to my post. I've seen you respond to people without quoting them when you're posting after them, but the post seems to not contain responses to a lot of what I wrote.

As for what you wrote here, I think you skip over a lot of important things that happen. Jon becoming Commander is not more relevant than that we learn that the Wildlings have united for fear of the White Walkers. Or that the White Walkers represent a threat that a big part of the Night's Watch was just slaughtered by them. We've also learned that the WW's aren't just killing everything, Jon will be learning new things, breaking new vows and viewers will wonder whether he'll be returning to the NW at all. Sam is shown to be the coward that will ultimately fail for the first time since first season, unless I forgot something in season 2. It's a natural set up for what's to come for him as he will prove himself later on.

If you haven't heard Edd say something that's not bad about Sam then you're not paying any attention. That could be a significant part in why you have trouble enjoying it. As for Joffrey, he is pretty much all about doing exactly what he wants because he's king in the novels. But still, apart from his sadistic and entitled side the show is showing us his fearful and insecure side as well.

And if you have such overly dramatic reactions like in your last sentence, I'm not really sure why you're watching. I'd never watch anything that I found to be that bad so I have a hard time relating.

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im not sure if i agree, in the books almost every chapter has a set tone and touches some sort of emotional heartstring, it never feels "empty" or like a waste of time, unlike some story arcs in the show.

Unlike MOST story arcs in the show, rather.

Also, I don't know if EVERY chapter has a meaning or anything like that. But damn near every chapter is great. Only a few chapters in all five books that I didn't care for.

To be fair, that should be applied to the books far more than the show. If ASOS's adaptation is already striking people as slow and meandering, I shudder to think how AFFC?ADWD will fair.

ASoS is easily the fastest paced book in the series, by far. But to be fair, it's NOT the book's fault. It's the show's fault for being so fucking stupid in season two.

The only character who, IMO, "meandered" and was slow in the whole of the first three books was Arya in ASoS(her BWB chapters weren't anywhere nearly as rewarding as i'd hoped they'd be, and her non-red wedding chapters with Sandor were mih aside from the last one)

Even in AFfC/ADwD, the only characters who really feel to me as meandering and tiresome are Arya and Samwell. But, opinions.

Then the story might not be for those people. Even in the books you have several battles not being described, or being described very briefly, and it will of course be more so in a TV show. The point behind that is that the violence isn't the important part in itself, it's the result that's the real point. That doesn't mean that I completely dismiss your point as it has relevance. I'm just showing that the original story isn't very different if you count the differences of the mediums. The battle at the Fist isn't described much at all in the book, it's mainly recollected in hindsight, and there's no budget issues going on.

It's not the violence or the climax that's important. It's the suspense of "WHO IS WHERE? WITH WHOM? WHERE ARE THEY MOVING NEXT? WILL THEY WIN? OH, WHAT HAPPENS NOW THAT THE IRONMEN ARE ATTACKING THE NORTH? OH, I WONDER IF DORNE WILL SIDE WITH RENLY OR WHAT. Etc."

I find anything militaristic and strategic in the books to be the most SUSPENSEFUL aspect of the entire series, and even if we only learn a few details about specific battles, I have enough imagination to make it even better in my own mind than reading about it. Except when necessary, like the Blackwater and the NW battles.

That's just like, my opinion though. If a show ENTIRELY centered around a story about war being horrible and pointless decides to complete bypass everything, you know, war in exchange for soap opera Tyrion-and-Shae, Robb-and-Whatsherface, Ros-and-Littlefinger scenes then I guess the show just never understood the books to begin with.

As for Brienne and Jaime I don't have a clue what you mean. Two scenes in every episode? They weren't even in the first episode. The two scenes they had this time were also not at all similar. The first one was them walking around and talking, and they meet a farmer where Brienne has to make a choice between honorably risking security or doing a bad thing. The second has Jaime trying to kill her in a fight scene and they get caught due to Brienne's previous choice. How you can describe those two as identical and just containing Jaime being mean and Brienne telling him to walk is completely beyond me.

To be fair, those scenes were rather long and dreary and were just Jaime japping around. Also, lol @ some random villager having seen Jaime Lannister before AND running into Locke AND knowing where Jaime was exactly. Just all around LOL to that whole thing.

Every Jaime Lannister scene from season two was awful though. Great acting and such, just terrible writing.

Yes, I do. I'd even go so far to say that it seemed to be the prevailing opinion since my biggest memory of the discussions about the early part of season 2 was that that people thought the pacing and transitions between storylines were so much better. Not that it gives the opinion any more credence (opinions are opinions), I'm just showing that it's not an uncommon one.

Really? From a scene transition standpoint, it really feels like there's no flow in season two(or three) to me. But when it comes to like, the scenes themselves, in the first season every episode had it's own ark for select scenes by a certain character. Second/third seasons there's no in-episode ark, it's just random scenes.

From both a cinematic standpoint, and a plot standpoint, I see no way it flows better now.

1. Higher budget is something you can always wish for but it's pretty pointless since it just won't happen. The show was already hugely expensive.

2. The nudity didn't bother me. There's lots of it in the books (actually more detailed than on the show) and I don't get neither upset or very aroused by that, I just take it as another context among many others.

3. Again a nice wish that just won't happen. D&D has said many times that they would like more time but they can't keep the same quality of production if they stretch it further.

These are all wishful thinking. Obviously what's done is done, and obviously it wasn't my show. But still, I can dream. As for the nudity... there's DEFINITELY more of it in the show than in all five of the books put together. As to the descriptiveness, you're right, some of the sex scenes are definitely more vivid than what's shown in the show - but with text comes metaphors, symbolism, insight into characters thoughts, etc. so sex scenes(whether tragic, horrifying or lovely) can all be quite beautiful in their own way. Sex scenes in TV or film can be as well, but I don't believe there has been a single nudity scene in the show thus far that I consider artistic. Except perhaps Theon on the boat with the wench, that scene was brilliantly done and well acted, and gave us a good insight into Theon. And an excellent parallel, as he gets bitched slapped around for the rest of the season.

4. Apart from that they hid some surprises I guess they go less on it due to that they aren't showing that much of the battles. I don't get the conclusion that they would supposedly do this because they think the audience is stupid. That make no sense to me given how much they expect the audience to piece together in the overall story. A non-reader really needs to be alert to grasp everything (looking on this board even readers fail to get a good deal of it).

D&D and GRRM have all stated that the reasons they've pretty much canceled out strategic talk in the show was because (according to D&D)it wouldn't be "as interesting to viewers as other things" and (according to GRRM) "we all agreed that the military plots could be a bit thick for some viewers at home to follow, especially if they're only watching once a week"

Not direct quotes, but pretty close. I'll find the sources tonight and edit them into this post.

I see what you're saying, but I don't agree. The non-readers I know don't have any problems following the things you mention either. Even your own description of them makes it look like they just aren't paying attention to what's being presented. Stannis was very obviously not killed, Robb's success is supposed to be hard to get because he doesn't even get it himself ("I win every battle but somehow I'm losing the war"), what's going on in the North is mostly said right out (even Theon says exactly what he's done and why he does it). Even with this season there's tons of hints that show where Theon is and who has him, but it requires you to think a bit (which is mostly exactly how the books tend to work with mysteries).

I'm just basing this all off my roomies who only watched the show, haven't rewatched the show since last year and haven't read the books. (well, one read the first 400 pages of AGoT and got bored and stopped, but he doesn't count)

People just don't understand who is who, what is what as easily as people who've watched the show multiple times through thus far and read the books. Hell, it wasn't until I was at the very end of season two before I realized who Roose Bolton was in the show. I just thought it was some nameless general.

This wasn't directed to me but it made me wonder. What has David written more than "Wolverine" when it comes to X-Men? As far as I know that was his only thing, plus that his script was apparently mutilated quite severely from what he actually wrote before it got used.

Wasn't David behind both Wolverine and The Last Stand? Wolverine was decent, but really not worth the watch, and The Last Stand was fucking atrocious in about a million different ways.

I could be misremembering though, I don't know much about what went on to make those movies and whatnot other than that Hugh Jackson is a beast.

Arya is my favourite character in the show (and Maisie Williams is my fave actor) so i really want to see her featured a lot this year. I just hope they dont have him standing around during the scenes with the Brotherhood. I actually want to see her interact with Thoros and Beric instead of standing in the background as they talk to each other.

This is perhaps why they brought the Hound back so early. (edit to add: so they know who she is, and therefore there's the drama of the BWB not wanting to let them go or anything)

I also hope they dont have The Hound take over her scenes with the Brotherhood (obviously he will take centre stage during his trial) and hope Melisandre shows up after she has gone instead of taking over her story.

I doubt it. I expect the next episode will consist of him revealing who she is, getting his ass kicked, and then leaving. And then the hound not reappearing again till the end of the sixth episode or so. Just my prediction.

I would also love to see her at the Twins and would love for the episode to end with the Hound hitting her so everyone thinks she has been killed. If they dont feature her at the RW then i will be very disappointed

Agreed on her being there. She doesn't have to get hit though, I don't think. otherwise audiences will wonder why she's been a POV character for so long to begin with if they suspect her dead.

If a certain story arc doesnt translate to TV very well they should cut it. i feel like the whole jon/nights watch story has been way too over-emphazised at this point because it has not been very rewarding, lacks a sense of direction and is basicly just there so we can have the battle of castle black and jon becoming the commander in the next season. Sams scene in this episode was another great example of a scene that lacked tone and purpose. Did we need another scene where Sam is belittled for being fat? it had the potential to expand the relationships between the characters, when sam started to cry and asked why the left him, i thought it was going to lead to a genuine moment of character bonding, but instead it ends with Ed (or whats his name again) cracking another "Youre fat and useless" line. So was this scene supposed to make us laught? i dont know what to feel, give me a tone D&D.

Yeah, my three non-book readers at the end of season one were ALL super pumped for Dany and Jon's arks in season two more than any seven kingdoms plots. Yet, throughout the second season and the first two episodes of season 3, they all took those Jon and Dany scenes as their break to check their cell phones and rest their eyes. No joke.

Plus, not to mention the laughability of Jon "assimilating" into the wildlings being so unbelievable and the pointless waste of time Ygritte flrting with Jon was. And how hilarious every Dany scene ever was in how awful they all were.

and now i have stumbled upon another problem. it feels like the characters are repeating themselves way too much. I have never heard Ed deliver a single line that is not basicly "yo sam you suck, and i tell you this because were bros", delivered with the exact same tone and speech-rythm. it was funny the first couple of times, now its just starting to feel annoying and old. This even applies to central characters like Joffery, since he became king i dont think we have had a single scene between him and cerscei (and some other characters, namely tyrion in S2) that doesnt end with him saying something that translates to "IM AM TEH KING I CAN DO WHAT I WANT DONT TELL ME WHAT TO DO OK?". i know this is intentional to show us how Cerscei is losing control over joffery and realizing that she has created a monster that she cant control, but it becomes repetitive and leaves the impression that the character only has one note to play.

I am so fucking BORED with Joffrey.

The problem with the show and Jack is Jack is SUCH a phenomenal actor, that he just OWNS the role and makes everyone hate him. But since he's older, and since he's such an amazing actor, the show has to make HIM be more the driving evil in KL and not Cersei. BUT this is counterproductive to the plot since ALL Joffrey really does in ACoK and ASoS is throw pissyfits, beat Sansa and shoot his crossbow. And die. In hindsight, Joffrey was mainly just a puppet and was more or less a decoy antagonist in the same way Viserys was in the first book.

I'd be fine if the show managed to write around it, to keep older show Joffrey in control instead of his mother, and if he DID stuff. But he doesn't. I think there may have been MORE of Joff in the first two eps of season 3 than any other character in that two episode period. Which is not right.

As for Sam, yeah, no fucks given about that plot. There were about ten FB statuses that appeared on my Newsfeed about the major DA FUCK GAME OF THRONES regarding that cliffhanger / opening. NO ONE was pleased with that cop out.

in season 2 i felt like i was going to throw up everytime daenerys went into a dramatic rant about being the blood of the dragon and how she would conquer the world, whenever someone didnt give her what she wanted.

Yeah, fuck anything and everything Dany in the second season. Including Dany herself. ;)

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