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Lord Barristan

(Book Spoilers) Does it feel a bit rushed to you?

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Hey guys,

Storm of Swords is one of my favorite books of all-time and when they said they would be splitting it into two season, I thought for certain this would mean they would fit more in.

My favorite storyline in the book is by far Jaime's. In the book, he and Brienne have 3 full chapter- which a pretty long at that- before they are captured by Lord Vargo. In this season, we were given one scene- that was masterful- and the duel, that was underwhelming. Why not flesh out these two before being captured? I know they had some scenes at the end of last season, but I feel shortchanged on the best duo in the series.

I also love Arya and the Brotherhood without banners. I knwo we can't expect them to cast all the member of the brotherhood, but I really wish they would have kept around Tom O'Sevens AND Thoros. Greenbeard, Lem, the Huntsman and some of the others may have been too much, but certainly Harwin being a Winterfell man should have been included.

And they have already captured the Hound! This takes fairly later in Arya's journey. I hope we get to see more of the brotherhood!

My thoughts exactly! People are already thinking Jaime's "injury" at the hands of Vargo are coming in episode 3. That's just crazy to me. Arya coming in to contact w/ the Hound earlier is a bit more forgivable to me seeing as how their relationship progresses in the book.

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My thoughts exactly! People are already thinking Jaime's "injury" at the hands of Vargo are coming in episode 3. That's just crazy to me. Arya coming in to contact w/ the Hound earlier is a bit more forgivable to me seeing as how their relationship progresses in the book.

What's so crazy about that? Jaime has had a fair amount of his material moved to S2 in case you've forgotten which means that actually he'll be more like 5 episodes into his travels rather than 3 when he loses the hand.

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I think it feels rushed because a lot of things from ASoS were moved forward into Season 2 because they happened at the same time as the battle at Blackwater. We had two Jaime/Brienne scenes last season, for example.

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To me, some parts do (Jaime/Brienne, perhaps Arya), some parts don't (the King's Landing stuff).

From the leaked synopsys of 3-05

Episode 3.05 – Kissed by Fire

The Hound is judged by the gods; Jaime is judged; Jon proves himself; Robb is betrayed; Tyrion learns the cost of weddings.

It seems to me that this is when the amputation happens.

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Which, realistically, isn't something positive about Game of Thrones. What this actually is is a negative towards nearly all adaptions out there.

The goal of adapting something into a different medium, or remaking something, should be to provide something enjoyable and artistic and EXPAND on the original universe. Not condense it and chop away the meat on the bones which makes the plot and characters work.

It depends on how you view it. That it will naturally be worse than the books if the books are good isn't really a negative unless you fail to set your expectations according to that.

I also disagree on the goal of adaptations. It's not in any way necessary to expand on the original, I'd actually say that most adaptation's do the opposite (I don't think I've ever read a book and then seen a movie/show on it that didn't cut things). If you have some examples of books who's story got bigger and more complex in the translation I'd be interested to hear it. The main goal as I see it is to provide a different experience, something that can both provide variety to those already familiar with it and reach a completely new audience that aren't readers. Even though you don't seem to think so there's millions of people that do seem to think this adaptation works.

I wouldn't say i'm too attached to the original books specifically, hell, there are loads that if I was GRRM I myself would've done differently. *shrugs*

That was a general comment of mine, not really directed toward you. That said you've made it sound like you are pretty attached to it in some arguments, being very focused on what happened in the book when discussing certain events despite that it's highly unlikely that it would have been used that way.

lol @ Prophecies in the show. ZOMG SEA'S COMING TO WASH US AWAY, next episode, THEON. Smooth show, almost fooled me...

That's quite clearly not part of what I was talking about. Not that I see what's wrong with that. It serves as nothing more than a little hint about what's to come and given what you say your non-reader friends have missed, or even yourself, this is still far more subtle than those. And why would they need to drag it out longer? In the book pacing, translated into ten episodes, it would have happened in consecutive episodes as well. Not to mention that two chapters after the Bran chapter in question there's a Theon chapter where the "cliffhanger" is how he tells his men that it's not Torrhen's Square he means to take. If you get the symbolism of the dream you get what's happening in the span of three chapters in the book.

Oh not true at all. While I do think it is near factual that everyone is disgusted by the existence of Ros, and nearly every littlefinger brothel scene, doesn't mean I consider anything i'm saying as factual. It's all subjective and hypothetical and all that.

It's obviously not near factual. Mainly it would be book readers that are annoyed with her, not non-readers, and not all of them are annoyed either. I'm not, as I understand that she's there to create opportunities to tell things that are only shown through thought in the books. That's pretty obvious to me. And what I'm referring to is that you write "this is how it is" rather than stating opinions. It gets a bit tiresome, especially together with your derogatory attitude to everything you don't like. If I had done the same, and had an attitude where I laugh at and insult the viewers you've mentioned etc, I think this discussion would have been less productive.

In the book, she avoided to kill Renly's guards or anyone who came after her post-leaving Riverrun. I swear, people who make TV shows need to go watch Trigun, Rurouni Kenshin, Cowboy Bebop, Full Metal Alchemist, Kaiji, Monster and all the other anime out there that taught little kid me that murder and violence is NEVER right and that there's always another option. In live action television? Everyone killing everyone, no remorse or fucks given.

But yeah, a BIG thing about Brienne is her insecurities and fear of not being able to take another human's life. It's a pretty big deal. And yes, for all intents and purposes, killing a "peaceful man" is the same as killing armed assailants because either way you risk your life ending because of it.

Let's just say we strongly disagree then. If you think people react the same way in stress while someone armed is actively trying to kill them as they do when they calmly assess if they should kill an unarmed man that has a slight chance of posing a threat then I just don't know what to say. My experiences as a martial artist and mandatory military service don't agree with you, as would I say that the laws of most countries would look different if people didn't react differently in such situations (we have self defense laws etc).

Jaime and Brienne just left Riverrun. While there are select paths they were likely to take, and their ultimate destination could be Casterly Rock, could be Highgarden or could be King's Landing. There's simply too many fucking directions from Riverrun they could've went in, so one hunting party? And happening to track them down? Hilariously unbelievable.

They know Jaime was freed to be traded for Sansa and Arya. In that situation it makes the most sense that he was taken to King's Landing, or at least Tywin's army (who would be about on the road to KL). That's just going by what we're shown, for all we know Robb could have gotten Catelyn to say right out that she sent Brienne with Jaime to King's Landing.

There's nothing saying that there's just one hunting party either. We only hear from Bolton and he says he has his best hunter on it. If you just go by his words there's only one man looking for him, but we see that it's obviously not the case. That means that he can be in charge of a hunting force that's spread out in various locations (as you say, we aren't really getting the tactical and strategic details on the show). The way you argue you sound like someone that actively tries to find fault rather than possible solutions.

And even IN context, many scenes simply don't make sense. Everything Samwell hasn't been making sense, the Battle of Blackwater makes ZERO sense, Littlefinger's jetpack from place to place makes no sense, EVERYTHING Dany makes no sense, etc.

Not much point in answering this since you don't go into any specifics. I can just say that I think you're wrong again.

And the scene of Theon fucking a chick, followed by ittlefinger watching like half a dozen whores in his house all naked, followed by his 'I destroy my bad whores" speech...? Used deliberately? Yeah deliberately for tit value and shock value. Ugh,

And just because something uses something more, doesn't make the comparison better. Would a band that used way too many technical wankery guitar solos suddenly become more bearable when compared to another band with even more wankish guitar solos? I suppose, but the illusion people create is largely a lie

There's a lot of other things you can achieve, like showing depravity of characters and society. It's still used as background for what the scenes are actually about, which leads me to say that your second sentence shows that you failed to grasp my point.

A lot of people I know don't know who he is, and it's really only on here where i've seen people be like "LOL SO ROOSE BOLTON".

While I guess he's shown as kind of Robb's number 2, the audience hasn't really ENTIRELY connected the dotes yet or accepted him Robb's right hand. So it's particularly awkward that he'll be betraying Robb..

From what you've said there's all sorts of things the people you know haven't gotten, so that doesn't exactly make it special.

And why would he have to be shown as Robb's right hand in order for the betrayal to work? He's certainly not Robb's right hand man in the books (quite the contrary as he doesn't want Roose around).

Oh don't get me wrong, I fucking LOVE tearing things apart. I do this with the books too. Only the difference there is I just disagree with single choices and whatnot and agree with the vast majority of the book, whereas I only approve of select pieces of the show. I am mainly hoping that season 3 will turn out awesome and blow me away and make me forget the abysmal rendition of my favorite ASOIAF book A Clash of Kings.

And a lot of the acting, locations and soundtracks of seasons 2/3 are brilliant enough to bypass horrible plot butcherings, as long as everything is handled correct. haha

Then it just doesn't come across since I only see complaints backed by some drama queen wording, sighs etc. You don't really convey any joy in what you're doing, just the opposite. I might be wrong but from this side it doesn't seem good for you to have your hopes up, but that's of course all up to you.

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To me, some parts do (Jaime/Brienne, perhaps Arya), some parts don't (the King's Landing stuff).

From the leaked synopsys of 3-05

It seems to me that this is when the amputation happens.

I'm pretty sure we have confirmation that it happens at the end of E3 but I could be wrong.

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I'm pretty sure we have confirmation that it happens at the end of E3 but I could be wrong.

From the episode synopses and what we have seen from the trailers, plus some hints in various interviews and reports about Season 3, I'd say it will be:-

Ep 3 - capture details, possibly attempted rape of Brienne and 'sapphires' (that glimpse of her head-butting), with Jaime's hand-chop to end the episode

Ep 4 - scenes on the road, with a lot of brutality from Locke and his men (this is from a couple of interviews which describe Jaime getting kicked, etc)

Ep 5 - at Harrenhal and bath scene (in one of the trailers)

Ep 6 - dinner with Roose Bolton and decision to send Jaime back to KL (see Ep 6 synopsis)

Ep 7 - already confirmed as the bearpit

Eps 8 and 9 - maybe nothing, as Ep 9 will be the RW.

Ep 10 - Jaime and Brienne on the road to KL and getting the news of the RW.

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Hey, let's be honest - if we really wanted a true PBS-I, Claudius version of the series where every detail of the book is covered - we would not only need a half-book per season (as opposed to a full book) - but 22 episode seasons - and maybe only a quarter of a book! with a bigger budget. I doubt that any of that is going to happen, so..... (Although I do hope that for ONE episode in particular - they grant them a bigger budget as well as time (more than the 55 minute allotment - and I think we know what episode I'm talking about.)

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Hey, let's be honest - if we really wanted a true PBS-I, Claudius version of the series where every detail of the book is covered - we would not only need a half-book per season (as opposed to a full book) - but 22 episode seasons - and maybe only a quarter of a book! with a bigger budget. I doubt that any of that is going to happen, so..... (Although I do hope that for ONE episode in particular - they grant them a bigger budget as well as time (more than the 55 minute allotment - and I think we know what episode I'm talking about.)

Red Wedding? I think everything at the twins(arriving, unpacking, everything Arya, etc.) could all happen in 55 minutes ASSUMING the entire episode follows Robb, Cat and Arya alone.

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I highly doubt the Red Wedding will even take up an entire episode. If it did it would sort of give something away since while it's natural that a battle, that's been built up an entire season, takes up an entire episode there's not much in a normal wedding that demands so much time spent on it. Even less a wedding for someone that isn't a main character. The viewers would pretty much have to assume that something big and highly unusual is happening after they've noticed that the episode isn't cutting away to other places. There's also fewer people to follow than there was in King's Landing and the bay.

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From the episode synopses and what we have seen from the trailers, plus some hints in various interviews and reports about Season 3, I'd say it will be:-

Ep 3 - capture details, possibly attempted rape of Brienne and 'sapphires' (that glimpse of her head-butting), with Jaime's hand-chop to end the episode

Ep 4 - scenes on the road, with a lot of brutality from Locke and his men (this is from a couple of interviews which describe Jaime getting kicked, etc)

Ep 5 - at Harrenhal and bath scene (in one of the trailers)

Ep 6 - dinner with Roose Bolton and decision to send Jaime back to KL (see Ep 6 synopsis)

Ep 7 - already confirmed as the bearpit

Eps 8 and 9 - maybe nothing, as Ep 9 will be the RW.

Ep 10 - Jaime and Brienne on the road to KL and getting the news of the RW.

This leaves out all the stuff that happens in Essos.

Dany's chapters are chock full of action stuff , does the budget allow this to be elaborated?

Costs money to do big battles.

One thing, Dany's only has a few chapters in SoS but they are so action filled I think they may fit into 20 episodes.

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I'm just extremely surprised how fast Davos and Daenerys' stories are moving. The other characters seem continuing at a decent pace, but in the first two epsidoes nearly half of Davos' story is over! I just don't know how they're going to stretch his remaining three chapters over 18 episodes, give or take that he won't be in all of them.

And with Daenerys, I'm just a little bit wowed with how much they put into episode one for her. Again, that's nearly half her story with the Barristan reveal, viewing the Unsullied, meeting Missandei etc.

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Red Wedding? I think everything at the twins(arriving, unpacking, everything Arya, etc.) could all happen in 55 minutes ASSUMING the entire episode follows Robb, Cat and Arya alone.

I highly doubt the Red Wedding will even take up an entire episode.

I think you guys are forgetting the preceding Catelyn chapter in the ASOS that sets everything up - Grey Wind's trepidation - the stern meeting in the rain with...Black Reyman (I think) - all the BS with Walder Frey and this is all before the dinner feast and before they get situated in their chambers - that's alot of dialogue. To do the RW right would take alot of money and a little bit more than 55 minutes - more like 80-85 minutes.

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Oh and don't forget the aftermath of the RW - which I firmly believe they should show! - the desecration of Robb Stark/Grey Wind's bodies and the dumping of Lady Catelyn's body into the river. People should be RED with hatred - pure hatred for Walder Frey after watching this! and they shouldn't spare the eye. no quick cuts or tv edits. - show the horror.

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I think you guys are forgetting the preceding Catelyn chapter in the ASOS that sets everything up - Grey Wind's trepidation - the stern meeting in the rain with...Black Reyman (I think) - all the BS with Walder Frey and this is all before the dinner feast and before they get situated in their chambers - that's alot of dialogue. To do the RW right would take alot of money and a little bit more than 55 minutes - more like 80-85 minutes.

I disagree as I don't think there's anything "to do it right" about making it 80 minutes long. That would be something that completely clashes with how the show has portrayed everything else, or how it can portray things for that matter. If I want everything that's written in an event I'll read the books as expecting that from the TV show is to have completely unrealistic expectations and probably a significant lack of knowledge how the medium works. I don't consider myself to be very knowledgeable about creating TV shows but I more than enough to realize that that is very far from plausible.

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on one of the parts of my post that you didn't quote, which is how spending an entire episode on something that's seemingly a good thing pretty much gives it away that something very important and unexpected will happen. With the battle of Blackwater Bay it worked because the whole issue was that the viewers knew that something big would happen, it wasn't meant to be a surprise. They knew one of the sides would win a big victory but they didn't know which. A wedding isn't normally very exciting, it's not nearly as multifaceted as a siege and the viewers will just expect something bad.

Oh and don't forget the aftermath of the RW - which I firmly believe they should show! - the desecration of Robb Stark/Grey Wind's bodies and the dumping of Lady Catelyn's body into the river. People should be RED with hatred - pure hatred for Walder Frey after watching this! and they shouldn't spare the eye. no quick cuts or tv edits. - show the horror.

The aftermath is better to show in the following episode in my view. The dramatic and emotional climax is when Robb and Catelyn dies and that's pretty much where the episode should end to leave the viewers with the biggest amount of shock and anger. Spending more time on the episode on things that take time will lessen the direct impact of their deaths, which will always be the most important part.

As for the desecration of Robb, I don't think they should spend too much time showing how it's done. The result is more than enough (if they can do it without it looking funny) and the book didn't describe the whole matter much at all.

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I think you are putting too much emphasis on "giving it away" yes its nice to keep it under wraps as long as possible, but they aren't going to eschew every thing that hints that something is going to happen especially within the episode that it happens.

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I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on one of the parts of my post that you didn't quote, which is how spending an entire episode on something that's seemingly a good thing pretty much gives it away that something very important and unexpected will happen. With the battle of Blackwater Bay it worked because the whole issue was that the viewers knew that something big would happen, it wasn't meant to be a surprise. They knew one of the sides would win a big victory but they didn't know which. A wedding isn't normally very exciting, it's not nearly as multifaceted as a siege and the viewers will just expect something bad.

"Blackwater" wasn't the only time when the show focussed on one or two locations for an entire episode. The season 1 episode "The Lion and the Wolf" focussed only on King's Landing and the Eyrie. I would really like to see the show runners continue the pattern of having one episode per year that focusses on a limited number of characters/locations.

As for "The Rains of Castamere", I expect that it will not only cover Cat/Robb/Talisa/Arya at the Twins, but that it will also have the Queenscrown material for both Jon and Bran. I think that it would be a real shame to not have the Stark kids in this episode - though I'll admit it could be difficult to get Sansa in there without losing the focus too much.

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This leaves out all the stuff that happens in Essos.

Dany's chapters are chock full of action stuff , does the budget allow this to be elaborated?

Costs money to do big battles.

One thing, Dany's only has a few chapters in SoS but they are so action filled I think they may fit into 20 episodes.

boojam, not quite sure why you quoted my post? I said nothing about Dany or any other characters, or the show's budget - I was simply replying to protar's comment about the J/B scenes and likely S3 episodes.

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"Blackwater" wasn't the only time when the show focussed on one or two locations for an entire episode. The season 1 episode "The Lion and the Wolf" focussed only on King's Landing and the Eyrie. I would really like to see the show runners continue the pattern of having one episode per year that focusses on a limited number of characters/locations.

As for "The Rains of Castamere", I expect that it will not only cover Cat/Robb/Talisa/Arya at the Twins, but that it will also have the Queenscrown material for both Jon and Bran. I think that it would be a real shame to not have the Stark kids in this episode - though I'll admit it could be difficult to get Sansa in there without losing the focus too much.

"The Lion and the Wolf" included Bran in Winterfell as well. But even just having King's Landing and The Eyrie makes it different from "Blackwater" who focused on one single area and one single storyline, as well as different from the suggestion that "The Rains of Castamere" should be entirely focused on The Red Wedding. The point of my post was directly connected to only having the RW and nothing else in the episode.

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It`s funny to see people say they want more complete character arcs intra-episode and then go on to complain that`s it`s moving too quickly.

Season`s 2 main problem is that we got sporadic scenes, not really moving the plot along a lot in that episode, for too many characters. So far this season I feel they`ve done a much better job of focusing on fewer characters per episode and actually moving along their arcs.

And then go on to complain that you can`t have certain characters missing for 3 or 4 episodes. Would you rather have them in there with a "pointless" talking scene - something there`s been a lot of complaining about.

With a show this size it is simply not possible to include everyone in each episode AND have complete character arcs in each episode AND have it feel like it isn`t progressing quickly.

Some things come at the sacrifice of others I`m afraid and as soon as book-viewers get that into their head the quicker they`ll be able to enjoy the damned show.

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