Jump to content

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

AliKat

(Book Spoiler) Lord Karstark's remark about Talisa/Robb

Recommended Posts

Anyone who has read the books knows that Robb marrying Talisa/Jeyne is the beginning of the end but in season 2 they got married secretly. They haven't made a big deal about her being introduced to his men or anything. And so far they haven't shown him losing the Freys - although its implied he would. So my question is, why wouldn't they show or make a reference to him losing the Freys BEFORE Lord Karstark makes the comment that she's the reasons they're losing the war. Because without Robb losing the Freys, she's technically not a problem.

Also, I'm not a Talisa hater but is it just me or does the chemistry between Talisa and Robb seem to be gone now. I know Richard Madden was interviewed and said Robb starts out the season just burnt out and running on empty from the war and maybe that's what it is. But they don't act like a newly married couple considering they could barely stay away from each other last season.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think before he said that....he prefaced it by saying he was losing a good nmber of men. I think they also want to build up friction between the bannermen and Robb ultimately leading to Karstarks beheading and Robb having to go grovel to Frey. It's a little bit differnt dyamic trying to build up the friction on screen as it is when your reading the book.....especially when Cat is describing whats going on and your reading how one decision has wrecked Robb's entire campaign.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Karstark becoming increasingly mutinous is probably to take some of the heat/suspicion off of Bolton, too, and not make it too obvious that he's planning treachery.

It is a little weird they haven't even touched on the Frey's reaction, didn't Cat make a big deal about it in season 2? Maybe I'm just misremembering. It's hard to seperate book and TV knowledge.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They seem to be playing up Cat being the reason things are going wrong rather than hint that Robb's marriage was a massive blunder. They may have backed themselves into a corner with this storyline by changing it from Robb marrying to save a girl's honour and realizing it may have cost him dearly, to a Robb who put his own likes before the good of his people by marrying for the hell of it. It is difficult to stress that without Robb coming across as a massive douche.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They seem to be playing up Cat being the reason things are going wrong rather than hint that Robb's marriage was a massive blunder. They may have backed themselves into a corner with this storyline by changing it from Robb marrying to save a girl's honour and realizing it may have cost him dearly, to a Robb who put his own likes before the good of his people by marrying for the hell of it. It is difficult to stress that without Robb coming across as a massive douche.

I don't think they are saying Catelyn is responsible for everything (even though at the moment she is feeling that way due to her grief), and the line Karstark has that this thread is about very heavily implied that Robb made a huge mistake by marrying Talisa. In fact, it's not really an implication, it's fairly straightforward.

Also Robb in the books did the same thing, only he made excuses for himself. And I don't think Robb in the show comes off as a "massive douche" either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

yeah i dont think the comment made sense.

at this point, theyre losing the war because the tyrell's sided with the lannisters. not sure what talisa had to do with that

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Has it ever been mentioned what's going on with the Frey army? Certainly not this season, and IIRC the previous one all the talk was how Robb had to make a deal only "for a bridge" and neither him nor others acknowledged he'd lose a big portion of his army if he cancels the deal. That makes odd all this blame for Talisa this season or maybe I am forgetting something from last season...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also Robb in the books did the same thing, only he made excuses for himself. And I don't think Robb in the show comes off as a "massive douche" either.

In the books he was conflicted by two dishonorable choices. In the show he basically went screw what this means for my army, captive sisters, family etc I like this girl and I'll drop my allies to do so. They have really played down that angle in the show, but his loss of the Freys and what his marriage meant has to be tackled at somepoint (unless they make Edmure do something so all the blame falls on him). If they did highlight Robb did as he pleased then he would come across as a massive douche.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the books he was conflicted by two dishonorable choices. In the show he basically went screw what this means for my army, captive sisters, family etc I like this girl and I'll drop my allies to do so. They have really played down that angle in the show, but his loss of the Freys and what his marriage meant has to be tackled at somepoint (unless they make Edmure do something so all the blame falls on him). If they did highlight Robb did as he pleased then he would come across as a massive douche.

Well that's your personal opinion and that's fine, but I don't agree.

Also I don't believe Robb's story that he just screwed some random girl because it was convenient and he was sad. I believe he was already in love with Jeyne. But regardless people don't have sex out of grief, they have sex out of lust. No one put a gun to Robb's head and made him screw Jeyne in the books, he chose to do it even though it wasn't the right thing to do in the big picture. Being sad doesn't excuse that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I expect the Karstark comment will be explained in the next couple of episodes, most likely in a conversation with the Blackfish.

As for the line itself for now, I took it as portentous. An attempt by the show to begin the foreshadowing of RW.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

But regardless people don't have sex out of grief,

Oh I do beg to differ. You perhaps don't, but some people definitely do.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well that's your personal opinion and that's fine, but I don't agree.

Also I don't believe Robb's story that he just screwed some random girl because it was convenient and he was sad. I believe he was already in love with Jeyne. But regardless people don't have sex out of grief, they have sex out of lust. No one put a gun to Robb's head and made him screw Jeyne in the books, he chose to do it even though it wasn't the right thing to do in the big picture. Being sad doesn't excuse that.

maybe. but your making an assumption there.

bottom line, we dont know how it happened in the book exactly and that's much for the better. hard to do a love story convincingly, harder to do it in the amount of screen time that they gave to this one. and this one came off as stupid on the show. and it made robb seem a fool.

and they haven't done a good job explaining the consequences

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh I do beg to differ. You perhaps don't, but some people definitely do.

I get that being in a heightened emotional state may cause people to be more open to doing things to make them feel better. However no one says "I'm so sad right now, I've just GOT to have sex with the first willing person available!" It's an impetus for a desire that already exists.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

maybe. but your making an assumption there.

bottom line, we dont know how it happened in the book exactly and that's much for the better. hard to do a love story convincingly, harder to do it in the amount of screen time that they gave to this one. and this one came off as stupid on the show. and it made robb seem a fool.

and they haven't done a good job explaining the consequences

Well everyone is making assumptions one way or the other with either circumstance, as portrayed on the show or as Robb tells it to his mom in the books. Since the book doesn't tell us objectively what actually happens, I'm justified in extrapolating my opinion from the evidence in the novel. People who believe Robb is so honorable that he would never tell a half-truth (but not so honorable to stop himself from besmirching a young woman's honor) are justified in their opinion as well.

Anyway, it didn't come off as stupid on the show to me and I don't think Robb was a fool - even if what he did was a mistake.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

in the books he didnt lose the Freys until they returned to riverrun.

Since this will be the first visit, i'd wager that the freys get word from lord walder regarding the marriage, and they leave, that turns to suggesting edmure be a replacement, and then the march to the twins.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that being in a heightened emotional state may cause people to be more open to doing things to make them feel better. However no one says "I'm so sad right now, I've just GOT to have sex with the first willing person available!" It's an impetus for a desire that already exists.

eh, its not just that. its the person who nursed you through that time and cared for your ailments. and then you got carried away, didnt think about it till afterwards

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well everyone is making assumptions one way or the other with either circumstance, as portrayed on the show or as Robb tells it to his mom in the books. Since the book doesn't tell us objectively what actually happens, I'm justified in extrapolating my opinion from the evidence in the novel. People who believe Robb is so honorable that he would never tell a half-truth (but not so honorable to stop himself from besmirching a young woman's honor) are justified in their opinion as well.

Anyway, it didn't come off as stupid on the show to me and I don't think Robb was a fool - even if what he did was a mistake.

yeahh well ymmv but to many it did. "i dont want to marry the frey girl, i dont want to i dont want to, i dont want to."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I get that being in a heightened emotional state may cause people to be more open to doing things to make them feel better. However no one says "I'm so sad right now, I've just GOT to have sex with the first willing person available!" It's an impetus for a desire that already exists.

Being in a compromised emotional state due to grief and reaching for the closest person at hand, especially someone who is tender and caring, for relief is something that isn't that hard to understand. Being emotionally compromised causes people to act in ways that they would not even consider when in their right minds.

Robb, unlike Theon, was never portrayed as a man driven by his desires, or lusts - in fact I think we can all agree that he was probably a virgin before Jeyne. He's a very level headed mature young man, driven by duty, honour, and loyalty. Regardless of his attraction to Jeyne, I hold the opinion that it would have been out of character for him to have acted on it, compromising both his honour and hers, had he not been out his wits with grief. The death of his brothers is the crucial mitigating circumstance here. And there is nothing about this scenario that I find singular or implausible, tbh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

×