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AliKat

(Book Spoiler) Lord Karstark's remark about Talisa/Robb

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Being in a compromised emotional state due to grief and reaching for the closest person at hand, especially someone who is tender and caring, for relief is something that isn't that hard to understand. Being emotionally compromised causes people to act in ways that they would not even consider when in their right minds.

Robb, unlike Theon, was never portrayed as a man driven by his desires, or lusts - in fact I think we can all agree that he was probably a virgin before Jeyne. He's a very level headed mature young man, driven by duty, honour, and loyalty. Regardless of his attraction to Jeyne, I hold the opinion that it would have been out of character for him to have acted on it, compromising both his honour and hers, had he not been out his wits with grief. The death of his brothers is the crucial mitigating circumstance here. And there is nothing about this scenario that I find singular or implausible, tbh.

There's a difference between simply being emotionally compromised and finding out both of your brothers were killed and your home was burned and people all slaughtered. And regardless there is less honor in marrying a girl because you had sex than breaking your word to marry another girl, losing an ally, and comprising your and your people's position in the war. Stop trying to make it seem like such a tough and wise decision in the novels. It was just as stupid but with slightly better reasoning that doesn't matter at the end of the day.

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Robb getting married in the books is extremely lacking, imo. It's no wonder the show is having trouble getting through the eve of the RW stuff.

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Being in a compromised emotional state due to grief and reaching for the closest person at hand, especially someone who is tender and caring, for relief is something that isn't that hard to understand. Being emotionally compromised causes people to act in ways that they would not even consider when in their right minds.

Robb, unlike Theon, was never portrayed as a man driven by his desires, or lusts - in fact I think we can all agree that he was probably a virgin before Jeyne. He's a very level headed mature young man, driven by duty, honour, and loyalty. Regardless of his attraction to Jeyne, I hold the opinion that it would have been out of character for him to have acted on it, compromising both his honour and hers, had he not been out his wits with grief. The death of his brothers is the crucial mitigating circumstance here. And there is nothing about this scenario that I find singular or implausible, tbh.

Well we don't really know any of that, do we? Since we only have a subjective account of what happened, with some evidence in the book that there may have been more going on, it's open to interpretation and either conclusion is equally possible. And whether or not you believe Robb's behavior is justified is entirely subjective as well.

I wonder - in the episode where Robb has sex with Talisa, if Robb had just been given the news that his brothers were dead would that make everything OK?

Personally I hate it when movies have characters who are overcome with anger or sadness and they suddenly start kissing, etc. In my opinion this trope is worse than the "King falls for the sassy girl" thing that people complain about.

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There's a difference between simply being emotionally compromised and finding out both of your brothers were killed and your home was burned and people all slaughtered. And regardless there is less honor in marrying a girl because you had sex than breaking your word to marry another girl, losing an ally, and comprising your and your people's position in the war. Stop trying to make it seem like such a tough and wise decision in the novels. It was just as stupid but with slightly better reasoning that doesn't matter at the end of the day.

I don't think you understand what I was arguing, so I suggest that you go back and read the conversation from the beginning.

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Robb, unlike Theon, was never portrayed as a man driven by his desires, or lusts - in fact I think we can all agree that he was probably a virgin before Jeyne. He's a very level headed mature young man, driven by duty, honour, and loyalty. Regardless of his attraction to Jeyne, I hold the opinion that it would have been out of character for him to have acted on it, compromising both his honour and hers, had he not been out his wits with grief. The death of his brothers is the crucial mitigating circumstance here. And there is nothing about this scenario that I find singular or implausible, tbh.

I would not go far as to say he was a virgin. They specifically say that about Jon because he had that issue about being a bastard and all and not knowing his mother..... and that Jon did not go whoring with his peers even though he is of age. The book might not say it but his peers are Robb and Theon. It might contribute to the manner in which Theon chastises Jon .... I think it more likely that Robb is in love the first time and does not want to treat Jeyne as a whore or mistress because at least in the book she is from a good house. Still don't understand the Talisa thing since she is of a lesser house. The producers seem to want to suggest in some way that Robb is tempted by exotic woman. I think that was a last minute change just to fix consistencies in the dialog between Rob and Cat that won't be reconciled even though the role seems to be cast as Jayne but morphed

The whole issue is that Robb is thrust into this situation too inexperienced, they had to make the alliance for the crossing, and it is a general bummer to have an arranged marriage with a Frey that is described as not as ugly as the others. Robb's parents are arranged, when not in love. To be King is to sacrifice in this manner. Cat spells it out for Robb... he can't do it and suffers the consequences

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Well we don't really know any of that, do we? Since we only have a subjective account of what happened, with some evidence in the book that there may have been more going on, it's open to interpretation and either conclusion is equally possible. And whether or not you believe Robb's behavior is justified is entirely subjective as well.

Well, not really. Robb was grieving and in shock, Robb was injured, Jeyne was nursing him. It's not a stretch to believe that his actions were influenced by his emotional state.

This is OT for the show forum, but there's even evidence that implies that Jeyne may have been placed on Robb's chamber as a honeytrap. You can threads about in the ASOS and the General book threads.

I wonder - in the episode where Robb has sex with Talisa, if Robb had just been given the news that his brothers were dead would that make everything OK?

I'm of the opinion that it would have served Robb's character better had the relationship been crafted similarly to the books.

Personally I hate it when movies have characters who are overcome with anger or sadness and they suddenly start kissing, etc. In my opinion this trope is worse than the "King falls for the sassy girl" thing that people complain about.

Grief as impetus for sex is more than just a trope.

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I would not go far as to say he was a virgin. They specifically say that about Jon because he had that issue about being a bastard and all and not knowing his mother..... and that Jon did not go whoring with his peers even though he is of age. The book might not say it but his peers are Robb and Theon. It might contribute to the manner in which Theon chastises Jon ....

I never got the impression the Robb went whoring with Theon. I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, it's just not the impression I got from my read. I would have bet money on him being a virgin.

Still don't understand the Talisa thing since she is of a lesser house. The producers seem to want to suggest in some way that Robb is tempted by exotic woman.

Unfortunately. I think the show messed up badly with the whole Robb/Talisa thing. I find it neither interesting, nor believable, but that's a S2 rant that I won;t go into here. :)

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Well, not really. Robb was grieving and in shock, Robb was injured, Jeyne was nursing him. It's not a stretch to believe that his actions were influenced by his emotional state.

That's not what I meant by "we don't know." I agree that it's not totally unbelievable - I just don't believe it - but because we're hearing it second hand from Robb instead of seeing what actually happened, it means that Robb could be a somewhat unreliable narrator and I believe there is evidence supporting that.

This is OT for the show forum, but there's even evidence that implies that Jeyne may have been placed on Robb's chamber as a honeytrap. You can threads about in the ASOS and the General book threads.

Yes, I understood that implication from the books as well.

I'm of the opinion that it would have served Robb's character better had the relationship been crafted similarly to the books.

So your answer is yes then? Or no, it wouldn't matter? I don't follow.

Grief as impetus for sex is more than just a trope.

So is the Talisa storyline.

But I'm not just talking about grief as an impetus for sex, I mean the way it plays out in film and TV. Which is surely how it would play on the show, and may be part of why they avoided it in the first place.

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It's not the sex the Jeyne which was dumb, selfish and incredibly irresponsible from Robb, it was the marriage. The grief isn't an excuse for that.

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I never got the impression the Robb went whoring with Theon. I'm not saying you're wrong necessarily, it's just not the impression I got from my read. I would have bet money on him being a virgin.

You know, I would have before, but now that I'm thinking about it I'm not so sure. I wonder if Robb just seems really virginal b/c you only get to "see" him through the eyes of Catelyn, Bran, Ned, and Jon Snow. Theon thinks about him, but he wouldn't have any particular reason to dwell on whoring or sex since it's not a big deal to him.

There is that one Bran chapter where Theon starts to tell a dirty story about Kyra, and Robb is like "Not in front of my brother" so who knows, maybe Robb Stark isn't really as virginal as he seems.

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It's not the sex the Jeyne which was dumb, selfish and incredibly irresponsible from Robb, it was the marriage. The grief isn't an excuse for that.

That's absolutely true. Honor is no excuse for stupidity.

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It's not the sex the Jeyne which was dumb, selfish and incredibly irresponsible from Robb, it was the marriage. The grief isn't an excuse for that.

I understand the RW has to happen and there is no getting around that. While it is certainly hindsight, I have wondered why it would be that he felt like he had to marry her right away. If he was wary of what Walder might do or afraid of losing Frey swords, why not just wait until after you pass the Twins north and take Winterfell back to marry her? At least you will be dealing with Walder from a position of strength

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There is that one Bran chapter where Theon starts to tell a dirty story about Kyra, and Robb is like "Not in front of my brother" so who knows, maybe Robb Stark isn't really as virginal as he seems.

I'm not sure dirty jokes = whoring, but I get your point. I still would lay money on him being a virgin, though.

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I understand the RW has to happen and there is no getting around that. While it is certainly hindsight, I have wondered why it would be that he felt like he had to marry her right away. If he was wary of what Walder might do or afraid of losing Frey swords, why not just wait until after you pass the Twins north and take Winterfell back to marry her? At least you will be dealing with Walder from a position of strength

Well if you buy into the honeytrap theory, which I do, you can easily imagine Robb being pressured and manipulated into it. It's no excuse though, it was still a stupid decision on his part. I'm afraid there's no way to get around that point.

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I'm not sure dirty jokes = whoring, but I get your point. I still would lay money on him being a virgin, though.

I could see it going either way. He certainly can't be totally clueless about sex and girls, though, having been really close to Theon, though, right? heh heh

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So is the Talisa storyline.

But I'm not just talking about grief as an impetus for sex, I mean the way it plays out in film and TV. Which is surely how it would play on the show, and may be part of why they avoided it in the first place.

No. I have a feeling they re-wrote it in order to streamline the plot, minimize exposition, keep Robb and Cat in the same place, as well as sparing them the cost of another castle location, and the cost of casting the Westerlings, or at very least the mother.

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I'm not sure dirty jokes = whoring, but I get your point. I still would lay money on him being a virgin, though.

Even if Robb was a virgin by the time he left Winterfell, after months on the campaign, putting his life at risk, all the pressure on him, dealing with his father's imprisonment and death, surrounded by the likes of Theon, Greatjon and later Edmure, and the young men of his personal guard, I doubt he remained a virgin until he met Jeyne.

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Even if Robb was a virgin by the time he left Winterfell, after months on the campaign, putting his life at risk, all the pressure on him, dealing with his father's imprisonment and death, surrounded by the likes of Theon, Greatjon and later Edmure, and the young men of his personal guard, I doubt he remained a virgin until he met Jeyne.

This is a very good point ... I think it's easy to forget that a lot of time has passed. Also, since all of this is from Cat's POV, I think that makes it a bit skewed for things like "bedding camp followers" and such.

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I'm just never going to get over:

Robb: Oh hey mom. Btw, I'm married!

Cat: Da fuck?

Hahahah, oh man ... Robb definitely seems (and is) so much younger in the books. I think that makes him more sympathetic despite making a lot of stupid decisions out of stubbornness and inexperience. I suppose that could be attributing to the show's struggle with him.

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