[Book Spoilers] Do you think the show still stands on its own?

[Iotun]

I think the show stands for some people, and it doesn't for others. No product appeals to all audiences, and no product is meant to appeal to all audiences. Its a fundamental of marketing, target a specific market segment, and differentiate your product so it matches their requirements. There is a large audience out there that enjoys twisted plots, many characters, having to remember things or piece the puzzle together. There are also people who don't want to do so, or don't want to devote that much energy in understanding a show. Just because somebody's friends aren't able to keep up doesn't mean that the show is failing, it just means they aren't necessarily in its target audience. If a show fails to appeal to 95% of the population, but strongly appeals to 5% who become dedicated and devoted viewers, 5% of the entire population Is a huge number and more than able to sustain a show. And I think GoT appeals to a lot more than 5%.

One other thing to mention is that if there are viewers that enjoy the overall characters, the high production values, the fantasy, the 'feel' of the show, but get confused by the overall large width of the world, the show is at an advantage because they CAN easily find out what's going on, because they CAN read the books, and CAN look out for details in the wikis. I think the show is reaching a point (if it wasn't alreqady there), where it can sustain itself by book-readers alone as there are so many of us around the world, and growing still given the show.

[Tywin's bastard]

It certainly stands on it's own, but it's a demanding show and everyone won't be able to follow everything. Some will enjoy it without getting everything, some will get it all and others just won't keep up. It obviously works for a lot of people though since the book readers aren't even remotely enough to have made this show the success it is.

[1234567]

Had I not read the books I'm sure I would love the show. I loved Tru Blood and that was different from the books, however by the 3rd and especially the 4th season I was getting bored with it and didn't watch the 5th. Apparently they were moving very far away from the books by then.

The worry is with A Game of Thrones is that the story is very complex as it is and the more the producers cut out / change ASOIAF to create Game of Thrones, the more the flow of the story will get mixed up and earlier things that didn't work will need more and more invented scenes to rectify them.

Saying that Season 3 seems better at sticking to the books than Season 2, with a couple of glaring exceptions.

[Qhorin Fivehands]

I am a book reader, and my best friend who has read only half of book 1 completely understands everything that goes on, everyones motivations and relevance, so yes it definetly stands on its own.

If you listen carefully and pay attention to the show, you will understand it. The creators are not trying to make a show that people can't understand.

[Reposado]

And also, we won't know until Red Wedding whether or not the fans of the show REALLY want to be fans of this show any longer or not. Ha.

agree with most what you said. not this though. i dont think the red wedding will be as impacting in the show because most show only watchers dont like robb that much, dont get what hes doing and dont have the impression of robb as eventual savior that people who read the books long ago did

[BananaSpice]

I definitely think everything is THERE in the show to understand, but it's overwhelming to fans who are only going to watch each episode once. I know a lot of smart people who are still confused/lost/mistaken about really important things, simply b/c they've just watched the episodes straight through without a rewatch. There are a ton of unfamiliar names and places coming at you all the time. I think a lot of casual fans still like it, b/c they really love a character (or two or three) and are invested in THAT storyline and like seeing that character on screen doing cool stuff. I just wonder how long that will last for the casual fans once the complicated information keeps piling up.

I mean, I hope it lasts and that the show stays ridiculously popular, and I love the show and the show is what introduced me to the fandom, but I can't help but wonder!

[Khal Porno]

I definitely think everything is THERE in the show to understand, but it's overwhelming to fans who are only going to watch each episode once. I know a lot of smart people who are still confused/lost/mistaken about really important things, simply b/c they've just watched the episodes straight through without a rewatch. There are a ton of unfamiliar names and places coming at you all the time. I think a lot of casual fans still like it, b/c they really love a character (or two or three) and are invested in THAT storyline and like seeing that character on screen doing cool stuff. I just wonder how long that will last for the casual fans once the complicated information keeps piling up.

I mean, I hope it lasts and that the show stays ridiculously popular, and I love the show and the show is what introduced me to the fandom, but I can't help but wonder!

I think the fact that it's intricate is one of the reasons that it is well-liked. To be honest it really isn't as hard to follow as all of that. And even if you're NOT paying close attention, you can still pick up the broad strokes of what's happening. I don't think you have to worry about it being too complex or hard to understand for most people.

[Joyful Union]

I think the fact that it's intricate is one of the reasons that it is well-liked. To be honest it really isn't as hard to follow as all of that. And even if you're NOT paying close attention, you can still pick up the broad strokes of what's happening. I don't think you have to worry about it being too complex or hard to understand for most people.

I agree. You can appreciate the series on a casual, surface level, admiring the scenery, costumes , direction, the various climaxes and scenes, and on a deeper level, seeing how it all flows together and interconnects. Plenty of people I know hardly know any of the characters, but still find the series very enjoyable. I think that's a big part of the success of the series, and part of the reason why it stands alone.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

If people complain about not understanding every storyline in the season by the second episode then they should do themselves a favor and keep watching sitcoms or reality TV.

[BananaSpice]

If people complain about not understanding every storyline in the season by the second episode then they should do themselves a favor and keep watching sitcoms or reality TV.

Even as an obsessive ASOIAF expert, I think this is a little unfair. Think about television fans who might watch each episode once on a weekly basis, having to wait a year between each season. Just b/c they are mixed up or confused about characters and plotlines in this extremely complicated story doesn't mean they aren't intelligent. They are just casual tv viewers of this particular show. At this point, and as the story progresses, I think the show is in "danger" of losing THOSE fans. The hardcore tv fans who own the show, watch multiple times, and frequent internet forums to discuss the show are going to understand a lot more are going to stick with it. And obviously, book fans are going to keep watching (even though a lot of us are ranting all the way ;))

[~Shiera Seastar~]

I am a book reader, and my best friend who has read only half of book 1 completely understands everything that goes on, everyones motivations and relevance, so yes it definetly stands on its own.

If you listen carefully and pay attention to the show, you will understand it. The creators are not trying to make a show that people can't understand.

True. I'm surprise that my hub who did not read any of the books can easily name and recognize the characters and memorize some of their lines. Even his friends who never did any reading or research about asoiaf understand what's going on in the show, and I can see they're really enjoying it - probably because they don't care about book deviations so there's nothing for them to complain about, and foreshadowings from the tv to what's gonna happen in the books are the least of their concern :P.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Even as an obsessive ASOIAF expert, I think this is a little unfair. Think about television fans who might watch each episode once on a weekly basis, having to wait a year between each season. Just b/c they are mixed up or confused about characters and plotlines in this extremely complicated story doesn't mean they aren't intelligent. They are just casual tv viewers of this particular show. At this point, and as the story progresses, I think the show is in "danger" of losing THOSE fans. The hardcore tv fans who own the show, watch multiple times, and frequent internet forums to discuss the show are going to understand a lot more are going to stick with it. And obviously, book fans are going to keep watching (even though a lot of us are ranting all the way ;))

The point is someone who is casual and doesn't pay attention enough to follow something complicated won't enjoy it, or at least won't enjoy it enough to make it worth watching. It's not about being unintelligent, but the show is only good if you're invested in it. I don't want them to sacrifice any intrigue or complexity because some people have a poor attention span or don't care enough to try to understand it.

That's why I said stick to simpler things if you find it too complex. That way we're both happy. (And obviously this is not directed at you, but at those who would complain about being confused).

[Mediumjon Umber]

The show stands on its own. Even if there are many characters involved, most of them have had the same basic task since late season 1: Robb and Cat are campaigning across the Riverlands, Jon's beyond the wall trying to stop the wildling invasion, Arya is trying to get back to the North, Sansa is trying to survive Joffrey and Bran is heading beyond the wall. Cersei is bitching around in KL, Jaime is still a prisoner and Tyrion bedding whores.

If the plot was confusing during seasons 1 and 2, it should be a lot clearer now since most of the characters are doing what they were doing last year.

[WiDMNDBAMMD]

The TV show stands on it's own. Especially once you watch the title sequence a few times to realize where all these imaginary places are in relation to eachother

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I think it does, but there are problems.

I can fully understand people who were left 'sticky and confused' after S2. Dany's story is going to be a huge problem going forward as she faffs around Essos. Jon was 'ok' in E1 but E2 had problems - especially with regard to Ygritte. Perhaps having Ygritte taking him to Orell then saying 'You know nothing' about Warging would have been an improvement. Certainly I can see Jon gets to Mance's camp... next minute they are all walking 'somewhere', could be an issue for people. This is especially the case because Robb's 'wandering around the place' can be seen as not really being developed well.

I totally get the 'need' for Talisa. I believe that Jayne Westerling would not have worked well on TV. "Jon rides off somewhere, suddenly comes back married'. But the real issue for Robb's story for me is the lack of opportunities for plot development due to lack of Lord Bannermen around him, What happened to Umber? All of a sudden during S2 it was just Karstark and Bolton. And now they are off marching to a not-battle 'somewhere' and Bolton has disappeared. They could have gotten around this issue by having a quick meeting with Robb saying "Right Roose, you stay here hand hold the Harrenhall flank. Rickard, you, me and the others will ride to Riverrun and clear out the Lannister supporters in those lands so we can free up the Tully forces to join us." Short, clear, decisive. And would have demonstrated that Robb's story arc was one that is still worth engaging in instead of being a time to check the phone for messages. It would have also had the opportunity for Roose to pull Robb aside and say "Why not have Karstark stay here?" (so Bolton can stay close to Stark). Robb could then reply "No, I want to keep him close" Perfect set up for focus of issues to be on Karstark. So much development opportunity to be had in a very short simple sequence.

Having the viewer firmly engaged in Robb is critical for the events to come. The season hangs on it.

[sarah.jenice]

I think the show does well for readers and nonreaders, and I don't think it has begun to lose quality or popularity with either audience.

I got my fiance, my mother and my sister into the show since it first started and even though none of them have read the books, they all love the show and don't seem to have problems following the story.

[Nezzer]

I think it does, but there are problems.

I can fully understand people who were left 'sticky and confused' after S2. Dany's story is going to be a huge problem going forward as she faffs around Essos. Jon was 'ok' in E1 but E2 had problems - especially with regard to Ygritte. Perhaps having Ygritte taking him to Orell then saying 'You know nothing' about Warging would have been an improvement. Certainly I can see Jon gets to Mance's camp... next minute they are all walking 'somewhere', could be an issue for people. This is especially the case because Robb's 'wandering around the place' can be seen as not really being developed well.

I totally get the 'need' for Talisa. I believe that Jayne Westerling would not have worked well on TV. "Jon rides off somewhere, suddenly comes back married'. But the real issue for Robb's story for me is the lack of opportunities for plot development due to lack of Lord Bannermen around him, What happened to Umber? All of a sudden during S2 it was just Karstark and Bolton. And now they are off marching to a not-battle 'somewhere' and Bolton has disappeared. They could have gotten around this issue by having a quick meeting with Robb saying "Right Roose, you stay here hand hold the Harrenhall flank. Rickard, you, me and the others will ride to Riverrun and clear out the Lannister supporters in those lands so we can free up the Tully forces to join us." Short, clear, decisive. And would have demonstrated that Robb's story arc was one that is still worth engaging in instead of being a time to check the phone for messages. It would have also had the opportunity for Roose to pull Robb aside and say "Why not have Karstark stay here?" (so Bolton can stay close to Stark). Robb could then reply "No, I want to keep him close" Perfect set up for focus of issues to be on Karstark. So much development opportunity to be had in a very short simple sequence.

Having the viewer firmly engaged in Robb is critical for the events to come. The season hangs on it.

Robb told Catelyn that Bolton would keep a garrison in Harrenhal while the rest of the army marches to Riverrun. But you are right that they could have explained this better.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Robb told Catelyn that Bolton would keep a garrison in Harrenhal while the rest of the army marches to Riverrun. But you are right that they could have explained this better.

Yeah I should have explained it slightly different. To the viewer he is seen as explaining the situation to a prisoner (his mother notwithstanding) and he is not seen having the discussion with his captains. A big opportunity lost.

[athousandeyesand1]

I loved seasons 1&2 and I've read the books. I have to look at it like this. The books are the story and they always will be.If the show sucks the books are ready and waiting. The show is just another means of hearing the story. No they can't make it just like the books obviously but I truly believe they are doing the best they can with what they have. If GRRM trusts them I really have no other choice but to trust them as well.

[Zorral]

The HBO series is way too much talking heads, heads talking while nothing happens: i.e. trudging, bickering and nekkind women performing unseemly acts while the heads talk. Unless it's Ygritte and that constantg "Jon Snow" sneer on her part, and she doesn't take off her clothes. I've come to hate her because she does nothing b but sneer "Jon Snow."

They've taken the enormous lengthy boring parts of the books and put them on the screen.

Like others said, drama per se, is missing.

It's posing against colorful or monochromatic backdrops and emoting. Not. Interesting.