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[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion


Ran
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That's how I read the reaction too. Maybe some viewers just don't catch the importance of male bonding between the characters, even if it involves whores. For the context of the characters and their social norms/setting, it was perfect that they used whores to have a laugh. Tea and lemon cakes wouldn't have worked, unless it was Sansa and Jeyne Poole. Asking for details and a breakdown was a funny end.

I'm not sure it was just for a laugh. I think Tyrion may be worried that the whores took advantage of Pod and got him to talk about anything he may know that could be of use to LF. You don't get something for free.

Or then again, it could be just a joke...

Irdk

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I have been disappointed that Pods skill with a sword has never truly been demonstrated, his scenes in this episode felt like a nod to his character from the author for not really being able to show us his worth. lol but maybe thats just me :) Best episode since Ned died IMO, no faults (I still want the accuracy of Robs scenes improved, but hey its getting there) and a lot to like

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The bear and the maiden fair!! Finally.

Brienne giving crap to Jaime is completely unacceptable though. She's supposed to be impressed.

Edit: gonna miss Hot Pie!!!

She'll probably admit it later on to him, he's being kinda mean to her at that point.

Was Missandei not weirded out that Dany understood what Valar morghulis meant?

Valar Morghulis is a popular saying. Many people that don't speak High Valyrian know what it means.

Pod losing his virginity.. something they really didn't need to include. Strange that they did.

Pod's a lot younger in the books(ten or twelve Brienne can't tell how old he is), Pod saved his life, Tyrion wants to reward him for it.

I watch with my non book reader sister and her just reading book one now boyfriend, and they both kind of cheered when Jaime got his hand cut off saying he got what he deserved, whereas I was like "NOOOOOOOOOOOO."

Watching it happen is so different than reading it. I think my imagination played it down.

It's because you don't even know what happens. The chapter ends with the Darthanki swinging his blade down, and Jaime screamed. It's a couple hundred pages before the next Jaime chapter that reveals his hand was cut off.

WOW....showrunners put the Meereenese knot in. What a great easter egg!

Very good episode, definitely the best in this young season. The Blackfish was suitably baddass and Edmure dull-witted. Lulz over Pod. Well-endowed. he??? And that last scene. wow. You have to wonder how far along those rapers got with Brienne. :( And even though I knew it was coming, Jaime's end was great/awful.

Brienne still seems to have her clothes on so.... not far I guess.

One thing I didn't understand, that little Talisa scene with the Lannister hostages...are they truthfully setting her up as a spy?

Yes, obviously, just like the PW is clearly this season because they mention the cost of it.

On a serious note I think she's just trying to make polite conversation with them, and it's a good set-up "Don't worry he[Robb] doesn't harm little boys"

Wonder what's gonna piss Karstark off so bad that he kills the lannister hostages. Can't remember if he has kids in this show or not.

He's got nothing left now, all his sons died fighting a war that seems pretty hopeless right now. All that is driving him is revenge. We see many examples of this in the books.

The huntsman that captures the Hound wants to throw him into a crow cage and let him rot. Lord Wyman wants to kill Frey's and bathe in their blood as he's dying.

and then there's what Catelyn Stark becomes. Karstark in the show tells Catelyn he would gladly tear his heart out of his chest if it would bring his sons back to life and let them be stuck in captivity like her daughters are.

I was wondering WHAT was Arya talking about when she said to the Hound "Do you remember the last time you were here?". After reading this I remembered she does not stop talking to him about what he did to Micah from Season 1!

I was like "What?! When has Arya seen the Hound outside of the castle?!"

I'm posting way too much, but this episode was really good!

She saw the Hound at Winterfell, when the King visited and they traveled together back to KL, that place was one of the places they stopped.

Hot Pie was cute. Does he still not realize Arya's a girl? He said "brother of a king".

Hot Pie says "I'm no brother of a king" .... Arya's brother is a king.

It does sound like he says 'Arry' when he says goodbye. Perhaps he didn't learn her first name after all.

I have a feeling they are going to leave the Greyjoys out the show... Stannis only said I want Joffrey and Robb dead. So I dont think we are going to see Balon Greyjoys fly off the bridge... I was eager to see that scene... No dead Balon no kingsmoot... No euron no Victarion !? Or maybe they are keeping this for later, when some of the old characters will be dead...

I saw about a one second clip of Yara from this season. Balon would die this season if they follow the books, it's the whole reason Robb sees the opportunity to get North again and the reason he goes to the Twins in the first place. The Kingsmoot wouldn't happen until next season, it gets called but it takes awhile for all the captains to get to Old Wyk.

Perhaps Stannis isn't even worried about the Ironborne at this point? He did destroy their fleet in the Greyjoy Rebellion so I'm sure he believes he can take care of them again no problem.

good to see riverunn in the credits and just a qustion when robb was yelling at edmure was he talking about tywin or the mountain cause tywin is all the way in kings landing also it was nice to see the lannister boys martin and the other one, didnt like that talisa isnt acting liek a proper queen and that the freys leaving is still not mentioned and i definitly didnt like that she tells them robb stark turns into a wolf whats the point of that it will only make robb seem like a monster. i loved the ending locke is one hell of an actor and jaimes reaction before the credits....... PRiCELESS

Robb is talking about how he had a trap set for the Mountain they would've surrounded him and killed him. He also explains that Tywin Lannister doesn't need his men as badly as they do because they're greatly outnumbered.

Why did Pod get the whore services for free?

"He[Pod] saved my life so I [Tyrion] owe him a small amount yes." - did he just make a dwarf pun at himself?

"I[Littlefinger] owe you as well, it's said you helped my red hedded associate out of some trouble with the queen."

so Tyrion owes Pod and Littlefinger owes Tyrion therefore Tyrion doesn't have to pay for Pod's reward.

Tyrion might have figured it out, but Bronn certainly probably couldn't connect the dots so he goes along with it to give the boy some confidence.

"There are no masters in the grave" and the slave praying for death. An interesting call back to the origin of the Faceless Men?

Call forward actually isn't it? Since the show hasn't gotten that far yet.

Nice catch though. It also probably strengthens Dany's resolve since that slave would rather be dead than a slave.

Questions from Episode 3 I need clearing up?

1. Since when do the White Walkers arrange the dead in the shape of universes? I don't remember this from the books.

Since the first scene of NW that go beyond the wall in the first episode in the first season.

2. Why is Tormond going over the wall? Wasn't it someone else in the book? Can't remember. Does this mean Tormond is going to die?! I hope not. He hasn't even talked about his "biological advantages" yet.

It gives him something to do this season. I hope they don't alter him becoming King later on....

3. What the eff is Ghost doing?

4. When is Samwell going to kill the wight?

5. Where are they making Stannis out to be a bitch?

6. Ramsay told Theon: "Winter is coming." WTF?

7. Locke seems like a good character for the show and all, but why replace the Bloody Mummers. Was really looking forward to seeing the leader of those dudes on screen. Would have made a great character. Maybe they couldn't find an actor good enough to pull off that role?

8. Why so much hate for the song at the end? Thought it was both great and equally as shocking as Jaime parting ways with his sword hand.

9. Lastly, who gives a rip if stuff in the show deviates from the book? I like the changes. It's not supposed to be exactly like the book. If it was, it would be difficult to watch. The Pod stuff was great. It showed Tyrion and Bronn are just dudes who want to know details of this Pod's great sex-capade. Now, I would't put it past Tyrion to have the whole thing set up that way to make Pod feel good about himself. You know, come out of his shell a little bit.

3. scouting for wights? I have no clue really.

4. Sam doesn't kill a wight, he kills a white walker. Probably when one is stupid enough to challenge the slayer. I'm guessing it comes after him and Gilly and the baby and he protects them?

5. He just got pwned. He's a little bit depressed right now. Did you see the pile of notes on his table?

6. Every Northman knows the Stark words.

7. Changes made season 2 have a "weasel soup" domino effect. They weren't introduced then, so now they're unnecessary. Perhaps this also keeps us in the dark a little longer about how sellswords and their loyalty?

They always get their gold back, one way or another.

hint hint

I believe the saying goes something like "The Iron Bank will have it's due."

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Haven't read through yet, but I'll read back in a minute.

Good Stuff!

A few laughs: Tyrion with the chair, Hot Pie and Gendy (I ship it)

Winterhell.

'It's a wolf.' ... 'Yes it is'

'Don't get stabbed' 'Don't burn your fingers'

THE FUCKING BEAR AND THE MAIDEN FAIR! Didn't like the rock and roll version at the end though. Good but nothing on The Rains.

We're introduced to the Lannister squires, good addition I think.

The Patterns the others made was interesting, a bit of fleshing out there. But no animal wights? :(

Crasters keep was well done, got the tension levels right, Craster's enough of a bully. Guys eyeing the girls, good build up.

The translation was funny, (but I hoope we get the reveal about Dany understanding them, or else it's a bit flat.)

Bad Stuff!

The funeral: In the books Edmure misses because he's crying. But here he's just fucking useless. Blackfish shoves him out the way like a dick, and he's not sad either. Then Robb's being a bellend to Edmure too over Gregor, which is even more ridiculous than him being angry over Tywin, when he didn't share his plan in the book.

Brienne and Jaime had no respect for the others fighting, which is a massive shame, I loved the mutual respect they had in the books.

Then Robb and the Blackfish believe Bran and Rickon are alive... No! Just No.

Stannis and Mel scene, was just odd, sets up the Gendry thing though. But the worst thing was Stannis wants the baby! He has no remorse about his brother. Big change from the books, don't like one bit.

Dany didn't share her plan with Barristan and Jorah. Not sure about that. Then her being 'commanding' just seems very wooden. Still not convinced by EC.

Any Other Business

Orell is going south with Jon, not too sure about whether this'll work or not.

Theon runaway, weirdly done. Ramsay (assuming) is an excellent marksman now, who kills his own men. That was odd. The Theon rape thing was actually not a bad addition, it's the type of thing I can imagine happening. And male rape happens quite regularly in conflicts around the globe, it's a big thing in Africa. Not sure of Ramsays plan here though.

Jaime having his hand cut off was cheesy and the scream was awful.

And Pod... Poor kid what was going on there....

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"The Bear and the Maiden Fair" cracked me up both times.. The first time it made me laugh because the Bolton men were such improbably good singers. The second time it made me laugh was that punk rock version played right after Jaime Lannister lost his hand. It was such a random juxtaposition that it was weirdly hilarious.

the guy singing it the first time is the singer of snow patrol if i'm not mistaken..there were news while filming that he would make a cameo ;)

i enjoyed this episode..especially "you little bastard" ..all theon scenes actually, the acting is so good that i'm really, really dreading what's coming..poor fella!!!

i'm really disappointed what they've done beyond the wall / in the north though..those are my favorite parts in the books and there's still no sam the slayer :( i don't know it just seems as if the writer's don't think the world beyond the wall or the north is very important ..

i also don't like what they've done to mance..i always imagined him as someone not so super warriorlike like in the show, i'm still waiting for mance the bard

and worst of all, nothing about tormund's member :P

i'm still excited for the rest of the season though

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Soooo.....

Basically Locke chops Jaimie's hand during a fit of jealous rage, feeling inadequate next to Jamie's fancy words, and riches, and looks, etc. - and probably without fully thinking out the consequences before he did it?

I mean, he just ordered Brienne to be left unharmed in order to preserve her value as a swap, so why else would he turn around and harm Jamie, an even more valuable prisoner?

saw a lot of posts to this point, but I didn't see anyone really hit it on the head...

It's not that Locke is dumb, jealous, or rage full ... It's that Locke doesn't intend to ransom Jamie at all. He tells them that at the end of ep2 when Jamie says he is worth riches. As far as Locke is concerned, he'll bring Jamie back to Roose, Roose will send him to Robb where he will be beheaded for his crimes. A beheading goes just as well whether or not the prisoner has 1 or 2 hands.

On the other...hand (had to) there was no mention of Brienne. She is not a fugitive, only a new prisoner. Thank's to Jamie she now has ransom value, and so is kept unbesmirched (not defiled)

This, I feel, is an improvement to the source material. You sum up the whole motive for the "behanding" by simply saying that a Northman sworn to a bannerman of the King in the North would obviously assume the lord he is loyal to would not want to be on the Lannisters good side. Roose ought to be fine with a 1 handed Jamie if Roose was loyal. Since Roose has some other motives however...

Locke thus introduces a few plot points and will help wrap that whole thing up nicely when the viewers consider it in retrospect

Edited by Justin Danford
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I have a feeling they are going to leave the Greyjoys out the show... Stannis only said I want Joffrey and Robb dead. So I dont think we are going to see Balon Greyjoys fly off the bridge... I was eager to see that scene... No dead Balon no kingsmoot... No euron no Victarion !? Or maybe they are keeping this for later, when some of the old characters will be dead...

I think this is a plot-line for S4 when, as you say, the cast will be a few heads lighter. I also think its a nice line for Ramsey to deliver to Theon right after he betrays him or is torturing him. "And by the way, your Father is dead."

Edited by Justin Danford
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Maybe because its only episode 3 of a 10 episode season? This isn't the last time we see Stannis and character development is something that happens over time.

Yeah... except that Stannis has had so little screen time (understandably) and they decide to focus on him being bitchy and whiney? Not terribly convincing. Now, in defence of the scene, I will say that Stannis really does not really jump-up in true conciousness until deep into book 3 so I can definately see what your point it here. At the same time, my concern is that they are choosing very, very questionable ways to detail Stannis, and him being a petulant brat is not that compelling.

Now, ONE LAST point to try to salvage what I thought was the worst scene in the episode: namely, that for viewers of the show who saw Stannis morph a shadow and kill Renly, they must be asking themselves "JEsus Christ, Stannis; just make another shadow baby and put an end to this!" Well, the show has to provide context as to why he is not taking that course of action. In the books, its only hinted at; here the show has to spell it out, otherwise they would constantly be complaining that Stannis could just "Fire-up a Shadow." So, in that limited context I can understand why the show felt the need to make that clear via the dialog provided.

Still a very weak scene, though.

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I think this is a plot-line for S4 when, as you say, the cast will be a few heads lighter. I also think its a nice line for Ramsey to deliver to Theon right after he betrays him or is torturing him. "And by the way, your Father is dead."

Yeah, looks to be some herd-culling toward the end of this season and the beginning of the next.

Should give D&D time to Tyrell and Greyjoy it up in this hizzouse.

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Now to answer some questions:

1. Since when do the White Walkers arrange the dead in the shape of universes? I don't remember this from the books.

Nothing like this is described in the books. However, the show has made it a point to express the visual "work" of the Others- made especially in the opening scene of the series. I particularly like it because its clear and dramatic evidence that the White Walkers are more than just mindless zombies, but have more style and possibly, more substance.

2. Why is Tormond going over the wall? Wasn't it someone else in the book? Can't remember. Does this mean Tormond is going to die?! I hope not. He hasn't even talked about his "biological advantages" yet.

Tormond is an amalgamation of several characters from Beyond the Wall and I really like it. I like that he is scene as a mega-tough guy and sort of an impish teller of tall-tales. I like the balance. IIRC, he never went beyond the Wall in Book 3, but I could be mistaken.

3. What the eff is Ghost doing?

Many are saying that he was "hunting wights." I got a completely different vibe here. To me, Ghost is not going back to Caster's Keep because Jon Snow hated the place. Once Jon learned what was going on there, Ghost sort of said, "This is a place that even men think is fucked! I am staying away..." and that scene with Tarly is as if he is saying to Sam , "... and you should stay away from this place, too!"

4. When is Samwell going to kill the wight?

He may never, which I think is a mistake (I think the whole "Flight from the Fist" has been half-assed (and I know why: to do the scene as it was in the books would have been far, far too expensive).). But if he is, it will be in defending Gilly and the baby, either at Craster's or soon thereafter.

5. Where are they making Stannis out to be a bitch?

I think I have answered this question enough.

6. Ramsay told Theon: "Winter is coming." WTF?

KInd of a give-away there. A the same time, I think Ramsey is toying with Theon insofar as he is trying to guage whether or not Theon is Ironborn, truly, or is more Northerner. The words of house Stark may give him some insight there.

7. Locke seems like a good character for the show and all, but why replace the Bloody Mummers. Was really looking forward to seeing the leader of those dudes on screen. Would have made a great character. Maybe they couldn't find an actor good enough to pull off that role?

I think because to make another troupe and give an entire different group an identity would require developing more characters, give more dialog to more actors and expand the footprint of that part of the story which would take up much more time than the show can expend. In "a perfect world" I would have loved to have seen that group of crazies blustering through Westeroes, But I sort of understand why they have not gone that way here.

8. Why so much hate for the song at the end? Thought it was both great and equally as shocking as Jaime parting ways with his sword hand.

Agreed.

9. Lastly, who gives a rip if stuff in the show deviates from the book? I like the changes. It's not supposed to be exactly like the book. If it was, it would be difficult to watch. The Pod stuff was great. It showed Tyrion and Bronn are just dudes who want to know details of this Pod's great sex-capade. Now, I would't put it past Tyrion to have the whole thing set up that way to make Pod feel good about himself. You know, come out of his shell a little bit.

These are two different thoughts- I think the Pod scene was fun, funny, nicely done and a very very welcome addition.

I also think that the show can be very good by being different from the book. There have been a myriad of examples of the show adding a great deal to the story by veering away from what was in the books. A brief (and incomplete) list of examples:

-Robert and Cersei's "FIve v. One" discussion in season 1;

-Stannis and Davos' "Ate the horses first" dialog;

-Any scene with Natalie Dormer as Maergery Tyrell; she is incredible.

-The conflation of the "shadow baby" and the death of Renly scenes- excellent time saving there.

-The introduction of the Reeds now instead of earlier where they would have muddled the story;

-Viserys coming to life far more completely than in the books

I also understand that certain things that I loved in the books cannot be included in the show because, well, its only ten hours. Maybe the biggest example of this was the love-making scene between Irri and Dany the Tower of Joy scene in Game of Thrones that has been abandoned. I understand why they did it even if I would have really wanted to see that scene and that it is very important to the explination of the series, Jon Snow, Ned Stark and how fucked up this place got.

But, but but but but BUT! THat does not mean every addition is welcome, or that I have to like something different mearly becxause "Well, this isn't the book so blah blah blah blah!" "Different" does not always mean "better;" its sometimes just "different." For me, I can criticize something on the merits and not merely because it was not in the book AND be rational about it! Quarth was not in the books- it was a terrible part of the second season and almost dragged the whole thing down; I don't likethis reimagined version of Stannis just as I did not like the reimagined version of Renly (book Renly was dashing; show-Renly was a child). I can like certain things on the merits just as I can dislike certain things on the merits.

Finally, everyone has to remember one thing: the book works. It worked so well that it sold millions of copies and generated HUGE fan interest to the point that it begat the show! Therefore, if you are going to change the books, it should be for a good reason. And most of the time the reason is really good (budget, story constraints, time) but that does not always mean I have to like it.

For me, I look at the show as an "Alternate Reality" Westroes - some things have changed, some have stayed the same and I judge each bit of it on its own. Nothing wrong with that.

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