[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion

[Ser Farbod]

i watch every week with 3 non book readers. i was waiting the entire episode for sam the slayer, the reveal of ramsay (guess that wont be for A WHILE,) jamies hand and dany to reveal her understand of kraznys(sp.) when do the more seasoned readers expect these things to happen? i cant remember exactly when she revealed she could understand him, but i thought it was during the negotiating, i guess that was all one scene in the book though? anyone?

I think they will reveal Dany's understanding of Valerian right before she destroys them. There would be little point to separate the two events.

[Cas Stark]

I don't blame Kit. Jon Snow as the Marty Stu can be annoying and dull. Even with his strained relationship with Ygritte, this guy keeps finding himself in crazy situations and surprisingly gets out of it alive. He even becomes Lord Commander, yeesh. He couldn't be any younger to be thrust in that position. I bet in the latest book he warged into Ghost and will find a way to resurrect in a new and better body like a damn Autobot. That character always gets away with it. Wouldn't surprise me he comes back as AA with better armor and two swords, and a dragon mount. Lame.

That really has nothing to do with Kit's acting though.

[Ser Luke.]

Liked the episode a lot, the only two scenes I didn't like were Pod and the Whores and the second Theon scene was a bit choppy and strange.

[FacelessSnow]

Sorry, but could someone explain why Ramsay's "Winter Is Coming" line was "ridiculously funny"? I didn't get it. :/

It was an incredibly cruel yet brilliant pun to mess with Theon's head:

1) Winter is actually coming so its gonna get cold, they have to move

2) Those are Stark's words which provide an ironic comfort for Theon on top of the fact that this Boy is telling them they are running from his sister's men, spinning his notion of who keeps him safe

3) "Boy" is Ramsey so in theory he is loyal to the North even tho he is helping Theon escape under the guise of Ironborn

[timstanton]

I think they will reveal Dany's understanding of Valerian right before she destroys them. There would be little point to separate the two events.

thats what i figured as well. next week. that being said, it is awesome to watch with my non book reading wife and friends who have no idea she can understand that fool and are all arguing with one another over who ramsay (boy) is. they were pretty upset over a dragon trade and had some theories on that too. loved the episode, looks like its only going to go up from here.

[Frumpus]

West seems young to play Mance.

Really? He's 43. Mance can be played by anyone in the 40-50 range in my opinion.

Dominic West would have made the perfect Mance Raydar, but he'd also be great in any other role on GoT. hopefully they try to get him for another role later on.

[Tywin's bastard]

DID NOT LIKE:

It makes NO SENSE why they changed Edmure's blunder from Tywin to the Mountain....like...what?!?!? Especially for non-book readers, this would have explained in 2 sentences how Tywin+Tyrells were able to show up last minute at the Battle of the Blackwater and turn the tides to victory. ALSO, this shows how close Stannis was to actually being on the Iron Throne, and how huge of a blunder this was. For the show runners to change it....is just senseless. I mean literally all they did was change Tywin to Mountain and fords to mill and blackwater to now i have a mill.

Why doesn't it make sense? These events happen in A Clash of Kings and it's always better to try to keep events current, rather than talk about something that happened last season which would make the viewers think that there's not many battles going on at all.

And your complaints also sound like you don't truly remember what happens in the book. It is the Mountain that Edmure is fighting, and they are fighting at Stone Mill. The difference is that the Mountain's force isn't followed by Tywin as he's now back in KL.

I don't get your point about Blackwater either. Why would the show need this strategic battle to explain how Tywin gets to King's Landing? In the show Tywin was commanding from Harrenhal and there were no northern forces between that place and King's Landing. No explanation needed as it makes perfect sense that Tywin could march from there to KL when the alliance was made. You only need explanations when there are clear obstacles for something to happen.

[timstanton]

Really? He's 43. Mance can be played by anyone in the 40-50 range in my opinion.

Dominic West would have made the perfect Mance Raydar, but he'd also be great in any other role on GoT. hopefully they try to get him for another role later on.

my vote is for areo hotah, strong belwas, or lord manderly.

[Ser Farbod]

West could be a great Oberyn Martell.

Maybe a bit too young, but Jon Connington would be cool too.

Edited April 15, 2013 by Ser Farbod

[maria underfoot]

I think that this episode was actually great, with very nice scenes, such as the Riverrun one, the Arya/Gendry/Hot pie farewell, the Jaime/Brienne scenes overall. At the end of the day, I don't think there are many big issues, but it's the small things that bother me. I feel like they're leaving out really great scenes/ lines from the books, while making unnecessary changes. (Of course, I think that this kind of stuff will in no way bother non-readers, who don't even notice anything. We are the nit-picking perfectionists) For example, what was wrong with keeping Vargo Hoat, and they had to create this "Locke" guy who's neither plausible as a character nor as funny as Hoat? And why didn't they have Brienne see how Jaime saves her? Why did they make Stannis a dependent idiot? Why did we need to see Theon's ass ready to be raped? And one more thing: I feel that this season, as well as the last one, they have somewhat neglected music. In S1, there were scenes which, accompanied by music, were truly terrific (Jon/Ned saying goodbye, Dany/Drogo first "ride", King in the North, "We'll kill em all" etc). Many scenes of S3 could have been just as powerful, had their been music behind them.

[ckal]

Why doesn't it make sense? These events happen in A Clash of Kings and it's always better to try to keep events current, rather than talk about something that happened last season which would make the viewers think that there's not many battles going on at all.

And your complaints also sound like you don't truly remember what happens in the book. It is the Mountain that Edmure is fighting, and they are fighting at Stone Mill. The difference is that the Mountain's force isn't followed by Tywin as he's now back in KL.

I don't get your point about Blackwater either. Why would the show need this strategic battle to explain how Tywin gets to King's Landing? In the show Tywin was commanding from Harrenhal and there were no northern forces between that place and King's Landing. No explanation needed as it makes perfect sense that Tywin could march from there to KL when the alliance was made. You only need explanations when there are clear obstacles for something to happen.

You are right I've misremember a couple details although I have remembered the big picture. From Edmure's wiki:

"Unknowingly in disregard of the orders he had received from King Robb, Edmure defended the crossing against the Lannisters, a fierce battle fought at Stone Mill where Gregor Clegane manages to cross, suffering heavy losses. But as Edmure sets in his reserve Clegane is pushed back. By defendig the crossing he unwittingly thwarted the plans of Robb, who had planned to allow Tywin to cross the river and then trap him between his and Edmure's army. By beating Tywin's army back, Edmure inflicted enough of a delay for messengers to reach Tywin with word of what was happening to the south, allowing Lannister to turn his army around and aid the Tyrells and the Crownlander army at the Battle of the Blackwater"

But it doesn't make any sense to leave out the part about how it single handedly turned the tides for the battle of the throne at Blackwater. That was a pivotal point in the story, and the implications of Edmure's actions would have been shown to be far more prominent and disastrous rather than just losing out on the opportunity to kill the Mountain. Also, with the Lannisters no longer in control of the Iron Throne, the Red Wedding possibly may have never happened, thus Robb remaining alive.

Edited April 15, 2013 by ckal

[timstanton]

And why didn't they have Brienne see how Jaime saves her?

i feel like it did. it showed her watching him after she came back and sat down, i think she understood that he talked them out of it, she must have understood that SOMETHING happened in order to go from full rape to chillin by a tree.

[Ororo727 Jon Snow Fangirl]

Sapphires! Yes!

“Rhaegar fought nobly. Rhaegar fought valiantly. And Rhaegar died” made it in. Yessssssss.

Blackfish was awesome. A++++.

Arya and Hot Pie with the bread wolf? So cute. So freaking cute. As was Gendry awkwardly clapping Hot Pie in the shoulder.

"The Bear and the Maiden Fair" cracked me up both times.. The first time it made me laugh because the Bolton men were such improbably good singers. The second time it made me laugh was that punk rock version played right after Jaime Lannister lost his hand. It was such a random juxtaposition that it was weirdly hilarious.

First, Jon and Mance are still a bit slow, as it was in the books. I think we will see more action once Tormond tries to scale the wall.

Craster is a right foul git! You can see the tension welling in the remaining member of the NW. Nothing good is going to come from that. I feel bad for Gilly, fearing for her son, knowing what her evil father has in store for the baby.

The Small Council scene was comical. As was Pod in the brothel. My man POD! :)

Hoster Tully's funeral is exactly how I imagined it. Edmure in all of his incompetent splendor, while The Blackfish saves the day. He shot that arrow like a boss, didn't even have to watch to see if he hit pyre. I really felt for Cat is that scene, even-though, I still do not like her.

Arys/Hotpie/Gendry was a touching scene. Hotpie with his homemade wolf, bidding Arry a safe journey to Winterhell. :)) The drunken Hound not remembering that they were at the inn where he killed little Micah.

Stannis and the Red Witch, meh. I see where they are going with Melisandre and I don't like it, but...

Loved Dany in Astapor. The Harpy looked amazing. The walk of punishment broke my heart. That poor slave wanted to hurry and die versus living a life of servitude to those cruel monsters. You could see the resolve in Danys' eyes, as she watched the slave children staring down at her. Kraznys is just so perfect. Exactly like the books for me.

Jaime and Brienne: I could feel the fear in Brienne's eyes when she realized what would happen to her. I love that she was able to get a few licks in before they over-whelemed her. You could see how her screams worked Jaime's conscience.

Jaime and Locke: While, I miss "kinthslayer" and "Thapphireth??", Locke is a great replacement for The Goat. You could see the cocky Kingslayer, thinking that Lannister gold was going to save him. The chop was so beautifully cruel. I cannot wait to see next week.

Boy is really doing a job on Theon before the actual "work" begins. Even-though he deserves every bit of it, it's a bit hard to watch.

I loved the Bear and the Maiden Fair song, both versions. The lyrics cracked me the hell up.

[Tywin's bastard]

You are right I've misremember a couple details although I have remembered the big picture. From Edmure's wiki:

"Unknowingly in disregard of the orders he had received from King Robb, Edmure defended the crossing against the Lannisters, a fierce battle fought at Stone Mill where Gregor Clegane manages to cross, suffering heavy losses. But as Edmure sets in his reserve Clegane is pushed back. By defendig the crossing he unwittingly thwarted the plans of Robb, who had planned to allow Tywin to cross the river and then trap him between his and Edmure's army. By beating Tywin's army back, Edmure inflicted enough of a delay for messengers to reach Tywin with word of what was happening to the south, allowing Lannister to turn his army around and aid the Tyrells and the Crownlander army at the Battle of the Blackwater"

But it doesn't make any sense to leave out the part about how it single handedly turned the tides for the battle of the throne at Blackwater. That was a pivotal point in the story, and the implications of Edmure's actions would have been shown to be far more prominent and disastrous rather than just losing out on the opportunity to kill the Mountain. Also, with the Lannisters no longer in control of the Iron Throne, the Red Wedding possibly may have never happened, thus Robb remaining alive.

That could be worth remembering when criticizing the show. It's much easier to remember what happens in the books than to adapt the series to TV.

As for not making sense, I can't agree with you. The story makes perfect sense as it was shown. It would have had a bigger impact if it had been shown during the second season, but that's not the same thing as being the only thing that makes sense. I think it would have made less sense for the show to have had such a crucial moment happen back then and no one talks about the failure until now. I also think that Tywin's attack was a big surprise anyway, without the audience knowing exactly what he was doing in the war previously. The whole thing is a good part in the book but the story doesn't stand or fall with the events being exactly the same.

[mafalda]

Just watched it again, and I couldn't help but chuckle at the Jon+ wildlings scene. I kept picturing the White Walkers all placing random horse parts in a pattern, then giggling as they tip toed away. Why the pattern?

Does anyone know if Beric Dondarrion's been cast this season? I know Strong Belwas isn't :( but I'm still holding out hope for him! Who else will beat the champion of Mereen, or whatever they call him?

So when do we think Lady Stoneheart will appear? Since Book 3 will run into next season. do you guys think she will appear then, or this season? I'd love for them to have her appear at the very end of Episode 10 this season. Like, even AFTER the credits. It would be amazing!

I know some people have been ripping on Kit's acting, myself included. But after thinking about it, that is kind of how he is written in the books. A little flat, not much charisma about him. And it only gets worse when he becomes LC. But Maester Aemon was right about why Jon is the way he is after he's elected.

And does anyone here know anything about CGI? I wonder why it's so expensive, I thought it was just kind of similar to computer animation or something. Because I'm wondering why we only ever see one of Dany's dragons when she has three. We never see.. um... Viseron and Rhaegal? I forget their names because we only ever hear about Drogon.

Also, I have no idea what Robb and the Tullys were talking about, I must have breezed over that part in the books.

I didn't have a problem with the rock Bear and Maiden Fair. I thought it was a cool version. It was just a little odd following Jaime's behanding!

[HoundDog]

Did anyone else take the Stannis scene as more of a desire for another ShadowWalker than for sexual pleasure? He asks for a child right after talking about how he wants to see Joffrey and Robb Stark dead.

[HoundDog]

Did anyone else take the Stannis scene more as a desire for another ShadowWalker than for sexual pleasure? He brings it up to her right after talking about how he wants to see Joffrey and Robb Stark dead. Seemed like he was looking to get it on so he could knock them off.

[Jorah the Explorer]

Jon Snow is getting worse and worse. His acting has boiled down to looking constipated.

[JonDunn]

Did anyone else take the Stannis scene more as a desire for another ShadowWalker than for sexual pleasure? He brings it up to her right after talking about how he wants to see Joffrey and Robb Stark dead. Seemed like he was looking to get it on so he could knock them off.

of course this is what it was about. some people are overlooking the obvious

[Tyrion4President]

I loved Theon in this episode. I'm kind of confused about what they are doing with him though, plotwise. Anyone care to enlighten me?

Theon was not in book 3 and 4. We really only catch up to him in book 5 and are presented with a completly broken Theon(Reek). The show is keeping his character on screen so that we can truly understand what destroyed him mentally and physically.