[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion

[PatrickStormborn]

I feel Barristan, both in the books and so far in the series, has been more of a Hand than a mere queensguard to Dany. Aerys had plenty of people in his court, and he was a young knight among many, while Dany is a green queen surrounded by strangers. Sure, in the books he doesn't usually say what's in his mind without being asked to, but it doesn't strike me as too out-of-character his shock to Dany's trade of a dragon.

He doesn't really take up that role until Dany is taken from Meereen, though.

In the books I think it showed that "Arstan" didn't really see Dany as his queen yet. But in the show Barristan has already joined her queensguard. So I understand why people feel it is out of character.

[Jon Icefyre]

Again, to reiterate: the point is that Barristan has decades of experience of controlling what he says. That's why it's out of character.

Do you not realise that Dany WANTED Barristan and Jorah to react like that? If they acted like they didn't care, Kraznys would not believe her. But she schools them afterwards so that they don't do it again. Dany needed them to make a scene, but she needed them to know not to do it again. She used her knowledge of their personalities to her political advantage, and she used it as an opportunity to teach them a lesson. It was a very smart move, and shows her political awareness.

Also LOL Dany owes Barristan NOTHING, and she'd EASILY win Westeros without him. She has three dragons; one knight isn't going to make a difference. So maybe you should think a little bit harder before you post anything about Daenerys in future.

First of all she has three dragons that are nowhere near as large as Aegon l's at this point in the tv series those dragons wouldn't do shit in Westeros and to even get to Westeros she has to first survive Essos, do you think she would still believe alive even at this point if she didn't have Ser Barristan or Ser Jorah with her? If Ser Jorah wasn't with her then she would certainly have been dead in the first season, and Ser Barristan saved her ass in the first episode of the third season so you're argument is beyond absurd. I obviously know why Dany did what she did I'm no rookie to this story, what i'm saying is I understand why Ser Barristan reacted the way he did and there was no need for Dany to bitch him out afterwords for just looking after her best intrests especially if his intial react was one she was trying to create to begin with.

Dany would not easily win Westeros without ser Barristan hell she can't even get there now and her Dragons are not nearly as fearsome as you might think they are, even if we go as far as the 5th book with Dany's dragon's growth increase the largest as most fierce of the three dragons Drogon was almost killed in the slave pit what do you think would have happened to it if it were a Westeros battlefield instead? Do you think Aegon l's dragon Balerion the Dread would have almost been killed in a fuckin slave pit? Not a chance in hell so please spare me you're "Dany would easily take Westeros without Ser Barristan because she has three dragons" bullshit. Her Dragon's are nowhere near the size of Aegon and his sister's yet and especially not at this point in the tv series.

Dany's not about to win Westeros with a army of foreigners and to win Westeros you need support from Westeros and to do that you need men that have names that hold meaning throughout the seven kingdoms to help you negotiate, you need men that know Westeros like the back of their hand, men that can actually form battle strategies based on their knowledge and understanding of each region and kingdom of Westeros like Ser Barristan does. So no as of right now there's no way in hell Dany would take westeros without Ser Barristan.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[PatrickStormborn]

Dany would not easily win Westeros without ser Barristan hell she can't even get there now and her Dragons are not nearly as fearsome as you might think they are, even if we go as far as the 5th book with Dany's dragon's growth increase the largest as most fierce of the three dragons Drogon was almost killed in the slave pit what do you think would have happened to it if it were a Westeros battlefield instead? Do you think Aegon l's dragon Balerion the Dread would have almost been killed in a fuckin slave pit? Not a chance in hell so please spare me you're Dany would easily take Westeros without Ser Barristan because she has three dragons bullshit. Her Dragon's are nowhere near the size of Aegon and his sister's yet and especially not at this point in the tv series.

You're agreeing with Barristan for being shocked at Dany... but you don't think the dragons are essential? LOL. Dany's dragons will continue to grow. She could wait a few years and invade Westeros when they were huge. But either way she does not need Barristan Selmy.

Drogon was not "almost killed in the slave pit". He was surrounded but he could have flown away at any time. He was there to take Daenerys away.

Dany's not about to win Westeros with a army of foreigners and to win Westeros you need support from Westeros and to do that you need men that have names that hold meaning throughout the seven kingdoms to help you negotiate, you need men that know Westeros like the back of their hand, men that can actually form battle strategies based on their knowledge and understanding of each region and kingdom of Westeros like Ser Barristan does. So no as of right now there's no way in hell Dany would take westeros without Ser Barristan.

Aegon the Conqueror won support from Westeros with his dragons. Dany can do the same.

There are other people in Westeros who know about Westeros, so again: Barristan is not necessary.

[SilentSense]

While perhaps not necessary, he is a huge asset for that project for sure, if we are to believe Tywin Lannister's assessment. In fairness, Tywin knows a lot more about Westeros than Dany.

[Jon Icefyre]

You're agreeing with Barristan for being shocked at Dany... but you don't think the dragons are essential? LOL. Dany's dragons will continue to grow. She could wait a few years and invade Westeros when they were huge. But either way she does not need Barristan Selmy.

Drogon was not "almost killed in the slave pit". He was surrounded but he could have flown away at any time. He was there to take Daenerys away.

Aegon the Conqueror won support from Westeros with his dragons. Dany can do the same.

There are other people in Westeros who know about Westeros, so again: Barristan is not necessary.

Yes Drogon was almost killed in the slave pit, and even though Drogon did indeed leave with Dany the dragon's intial reason for being there wasn't to take her away, it was to hunt because Drogon smelled blood and death from the fighting in the pits, it wasn't even aware of Dany's presence initially. It wasn't until after Dany ran into the pit and made herself known to/attepmted to tame Drogon that they then left together.

Any way at this point in the tv series her dragons are essential because they prove that she is indeed Danearys Targaryen instead of some pretender and because of the potenial power they represent once they are fully grown! There not even near that size yet, so yes if it came down to having to kill them they would not be seen nearly as fearsome of a foe as Aegon and his sister's dragon's were. Aegon is not comparable to Dany because his Dragons were all a lot larger than Dany's are at any point in any of the books or seasons so far. Do you think if Aegon l used the exact same method he used when he conquerred Westeros but instead his dragons were the size that Dany's dragons currently were he would have still won? No fuckin way so this whole "if Aegon can take Westeros with just Dragons then Dany can do the same" idea is complete utter nonsense because her dragons are not nearly as powerful of a weapon as Aegon and his sister's were yet. If Dany wants to wait until her dragons grow that big and then attack Westeros then yes she wouldn't need Ser Barristan, but as of right now in the tv series when she bitches him out and threatens to part ways with him there's no way in hell she'd do shit in Westeros without Ser Barristan's help, because her dragons are still at the size where they wouldn't be the biggest factor in the outcome of a large Westeros battle, so she would still need to take the throne the way Robert Baratheon took it.

Tywin Lannister would put her and her dragon's heads on spikes. Most ppl in Essos don't give a fuck about Dany they just want her dragons and if she didn't have Ser Jorah or Ser Barristan with her protecing/advising her she would have already been dead a long time ago...

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[SilentSense]

Also LOL Dany owes Barristan NOTHING

wait, didn't he, like, save her life or something?

[Hand of the Kingslayer]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it's quite long thread.

So Mel leaves Dragonstone. Where is she going?

Well from what we know from the earlier trailers for season 3, it's seems there is a point where she meets up with Thoros and the Brotherhood. They never meet up in books, but red priest/priestess, maybe in this world, Mel and Thoros are old pals.

or:

Maybe this world contains no Edric Storm. There was no siege at storm's end, and he's not going to just pop up at Dragonstone unexplained. Mel still needs king's blood. Stannis is too weak. Joffery had all of Robert's bastards killed, so who else has it? As far as we know, there is only one of Robert's bastards who is still alive. I wonder who he's rolling with these days.......

[SilentSense]

Mel meets up with Thoros only to find Davos miraculously escaped, was there already and has sent Gendry away on a horse that is out of reach at the time of Mel's arriving...

Edited April 16, 2013 by SilentSense

[JMJ]

(snip)

Also LOL Dany owes Barristan NOTHING, and she'd EASILY win Westeros without him. She has three dragons; one knight isn't going to make a difference. So maybe you should think a little bit harder before you post anything about Daenerys in future.

One point I'd differ on this is that Barristan currently is the only personal link Dany has to Westeros that would allow Dany to convince folks back in Westeros that she is legit. Jorah is seen as shamed and a slaver. Some houses may automatically bend the knee to House Targaryen again once Dany arrives, but there are likely a fair number for whom Barristan's word and approval would be a meaningful endorsement. Not only is he still respected by much of the Kingdom as one of the greatest knights and KG's to have lived, but he served House Baratheon loyally, so he has the unique perspective only a few have of having been in both the Usurper's and Targ's camps.

ETA: This may be the key difference in Dany being perceived as a foreign invader with dragons who happens to be a Targ vs. someone people can get behind.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jam Maester Jay

[mafalda]

Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but it's quite long thread.

So Mel leaves Dragonstone. Where is she going?

Well from what we know from the earlier trailers for season 3, it's seems there is a point where she meets up with Thoros and the Brotherhood. They never meet up in books, but red priest/priestess, maybe in this world, Mel and Thoros are old pals.

or:

Maybe this world contains no Edric Storm. There was no siege at storm's end, and he's not going to just pop up at Dragonstone unexplained. Mel still needs king's blood. Stannis is too weak. Joffery had all of Robert's bastards killed, so who else has it? As far as we know, there is only one of Robert's bastards who is still alive. I wonder who he's rolling with these days.......

Yes, the previews show her meeting up with Thoros.. I believe they are substituting Edric for Gendry, because remember he is King Robert's bastard child so he does have a King's Blood in him. The same king as Edric.

[Janicia]

DID NOT LIKE:

It makes NO SENSE why they changed Edmure's blunder from Tywin to the Mountain....like...what?!?!? Especially for non-book readers, this would have explained in 2 sentences how Tywin+Tyrells were able to show up last minute at the Battle of the Blackwater and turn the tides to victory. ALSO, this shows how close Stannis was to actually being on the Iron Throne, and how huge of a blunder this was. For the show runners to change it....is just senseless. I mean literally all they did was change Tywin to Mountain and fords to mill and blackwater to now i have a mill.

Things like this just piss me off so much.

This was just goofy in the book though. Robb depended on Edmure's actions in a complicated battle strategy, but gave vague, incomplete instructions to him for no reason. And then flipped out when it turned out that Edmure didn't understand his role. That whole sequence reflected really badly on Robb and made you wonder how much of his success was down to dumb luck. But it seems like Robb was generally pretty competent with his battling, so that didn't really make sense.

Reducing the scale of the incident from "keeping Tywin's whole army out of position" to "killing off the mountain" makes Robb's errors in communication more understandable.

On the other hand, Tywin for some reason neglects to communicate much with Kings Landing for unknown reasons, leading them to think they wouldn't get his backup. That was is an odd plot contrivance.

[boojam]

One point I'd differ on this is that Barristan currently is the only personal link Dany has to Westeros that would allow Dany to convince folks back in Westeros that she is legit. Jorah is seen as shamed and a slaver. Some houses may automatically bend the knee to House Targaryen again once Dany arrives, but there are likely a fair number for whom Barristan's word and approval would be a meaningful endorsement. Not only is he still respected by much of the Kingdom as one of the greatest knights and KG's to have lived, but he served House Baratheon loyally, so he has the unique perspective only a few have of having been in both the Usurper's and Targ's camps.

ETA: This may be the key difference in Dany being perceived as a foreign invader with dragons who happens to be a Targ vs. someone people can get behind.

Well one might think there would be a lot of Westerosi who know Dany is legit. If knifes were sent to kill her and her brother for many years then those who sent them would know.

Then there is the assertion in the books that there is a silent minority (majority?) who would welcome back a Targ.

I have the crazy notion that Varys knows who Dany is and where she is and she important to some mysterious story we know nothing about.

Tho I always thought it odd. The seven kingdoms were unified by conquest and force.

But apparently there were good Targ rulers so maybe people yearn for that?

The big fly in the ointment is this what-ever-the-hell the Winter-Ohters want?

GRRM keeps intimating they are going to come on stage in a BIG WAY , while we readers and viewers fiddle-faddle around about the fight for the Iron throne.

My impression is fans are only interested in events in Westeros, with a fair following for things in the East.

My hunch is that Winds of Winter means what it implies and it's gonna be West and East (and maybe that goofy Red God) vs the Sauron of the North!

We shall see.

[Conchobar]

I just spotted my friend in the episode yesterday after watching it a second time! I freaked out! Me and a few other mates are trying to get in this year, he advised us to grow our hair long like him and grow beards. He said he's in the next episode as well, can't wait! xD

[Dragonblood Stormborn]

Where is Vargo Hoat's lisp?

And, I know it's futile to compare the events in the book to the show, but it's addictive to do so. So, I just want to know a couple of things.

In the book, Reek pretends Theon's sister sent him, but that is a ruse for Ramsey to chase him down, right? Like in the show, only the event happens in ADWD not in ASOS. yeah? or am I completely off?

Another thing, The horses heads in a spiral in the snow that Jon & the wildlings find, was that in the book?

[JMJ]

Well one might think there would be a lot of Westerosi who know Dany is legit. If knifes were sent to kill her and her brother for many years then those who sent them would know.

Then there is the assertion in the books that there is a silent minority (majority?) who would welcome back a Targ.

I have the crazy notion that Varys knows who Dany is and where she is and she important to some mysterious story we know nothing about.

Tho I always thought it odd. The seven kingdoms were unified by conquest and force.

But apparently there were good Targ rulers so maybe people yearn for that?

The big fly in the ointment is this what-ever-the-hell the Winter-Ohters want?

GRRM keeps intimating they are going to come on stage in a BIG WAY , while we readers and viewers fiddle-faddle around about the fight for the Iron throne.

My impression is fans are only interested in events in Westeros, with a fair following for things in the East.

My hunch is that Winds of Winter means what it implies and it's gonna be West and East (and maybe that goofy Red God) vs the Sauron of the North!

We shall see.

Possible. I've always thought that the claim that a bunch of Westerosi, especially smallfolk, would just up and support Dany is wishful thinking on her (and Viserys') part. It goes back to Varys' riddle. People won't just blindly follow you just because you believe you are the "rightful heir."

I do agree though that after Dany lands, her plans will change due to the Others invading.

[Mistress of Lemon Cakes]

I did not see anything Barristan said as being out of character. At all.

I don't care how well trained he was at keeping his mouth shut around Aerys (and I think that might have had something to do with the fact that Aerys was utterly insane) ... Dany has given life to three dragons and the world has not seen dragons for over a century. His reaction to her giving up one of her dragons so casually seems perfectly normal giving the context of the situation.

The only person I thought acted completely and totally out of character was Stanis. And that's not even just from the books.

[Harrad]

Yes, the previews show her meeting up with Thoros.. I believe they are substituting Edric for Gendry, because remember he is King Robert's bastard child so he does have a King's Blood in him. The same king as Edric.

If true as I read in other places, say goodbye to Gendry.

[Lily Valley]

The Hold Steady, should be available by the end of the week (4/20)

http://winteriscomin...n-fair-to-life/

The Hold Steady, of course. So awesome. They just keep making me happy!

[Pretty Meris]

Really, really awesome episode, there is not much more I could say that has not already been said.

One aesthetic thing however, I absolutely loved the Tully fishscale armor!

[FattyPeon]

Ser Barristan sided with Ned, against his king, on the matter of assassinating Dany. He doesn't just sit there quietly when he needs to say something, especially when part of his implied role is counsel.