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[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion

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Now to answer some questions:

1. Since when do the White Walkers arrange the dead in the shape of universes? I don't remember this from the books.

Nothing like this is described in the books. However, the show has made it a point to express the visual "work" of the Others- made especially in the opening scene of the series. I particularly like it because its clear and dramatic evidence that the White Walkers are more than just mindless zombies, but have more style and possibly, more substance.

2. Why is Tormond going over the wall? Wasn't it someone else in the book? Can't remember. Does this mean Tormond is going to die?! I hope not. He hasn't even talked about his "biological advantages" yet.

Tormond is an amalgamation of several characters from Beyond the Wall and I really like it. I like that he is scene as a mega-tough guy and sort of an impish teller of tall-tales. I like the balance. IIRC, he never went beyond the Wall in Book 3, but I could be mistaken.

3. What the eff is Ghost doing?

Many are saying that he was "hunting wights." I got a completely different vibe here. To me, Ghost is not going back to Caster's Keep because Jon Snow hated the place. Once Jon learned what was going on there, Ghost sort of said, "This is a place that even men think is fucked! I am staying away..." and that scene with Tarly is as if he is saying to Sam , "... and you should stay away from this place, too!"

4. When is Samwell going to kill the wight?

He may never, which I think is a mistake (I think the whole "Flight from the Fist" has been half-assed (and I know why: to do the scene as it was in the books would have been far, far too expensive).). But if he is, it will be in defending Gilly and the baby, either at Craster's or soon thereafter.

5. Where are they making Stannis out to be a bitch?

I think I have answered this question enough.

6. Ramsay told Theon: "Winter is coming." WTF?

KInd of a give-away there. A the same time, I think Ramsey is toying with Theon insofar as he is trying to guage whether or not Theon is Ironborn, truly, or is more Northerner. The words of house Stark may give him some insight there.

7. Locke seems like a good character for the show and all, but why replace the Bloody Mummers. Was really looking forward to seeing the leader of those dudes on screen. Would have made a great character. Maybe they couldn't find an actor good enough to pull off that role?

I think because to make another troupe and give an entire different group an identity would require developing more characters, give more dialog to more actors and expand the footprint of that part of the story which would take up much more time than the show can expend. In "a perfect world" I would have loved to have seen that group of crazies blustering through Westeroes, But I sort of understand why they have not gone that way here.

8. Why so much hate for the song at the end? Thought it was both great and equally as shocking as Jaime parting ways with his sword hand.

Agreed.

9. Lastly, who gives a rip if stuff in the show deviates from the book? I like the changes. It's not supposed to be exactly like the book. If it was, it would be difficult to watch. The Pod stuff was great. It showed Tyrion and Bronn are just dudes who want to know details of this Pod's great sex-capade. Now, I would't put it past Tyrion to have the whole thing set up that way to make Pod feel good about himself. You know, come out of his shell a little bit.

These are two different thoughts- I think the Pod scene was fun, funny, nicely done and a very very welcome addition.

I also think that the show can be very good by being different from the book. There have been a myriad of examples of the show adding a great deal to the story by veering away from what was in the books. A brief (and incomplete) list of examples:

-Robert and Cersei's "FIve v. One" discussion in season 1;

-Stannis and Davos' "Ate the horses first" dialog;

-Any scene with Natalie Dormer as Maergery Tyrell; she is incredible.

-The conflation of the "shadow baby" and the death of Renly scenes- excellent time saving there.

-The introduction of the Reeds now instead of earlier where they would have muddled the story;

-Viserys coming to life far more completely than in the books

I also understand that certain things that I loved in the books cannot be included in the show because, well, its only ten hours. Maybe the biggest example of this was the love-making scene between Irri and Dany the Tower of Joy scene in Game of Thrones that has been abandoned. I understand why they did it even if I would have really wanted to see that scene and that it is very important to the explination of the series, Jon Snow, Ned Stark and how fucked up this place got.

But, but but but but BUT! THat does not mean every addition is welcome, or that I have to like something different mearly becxause "Well, this isn't the book so blah blah blah blah!" "Different" does not always mean "better;" its sometimes just "different." For me, I can criticize something on the merits and not merely because it was not in the book AND be rational about it! Quarth was not in the books- it was a terrible part of the second season and almost dragged the whole thing down; I don't likethis reimagined version of Stannis just as I did not like the reimagined version of Renly (book Renly was dashing; show-Renly was a child). I can like certain things on the merits just as I can dislike certain things on the merits.

Finally, everyone has to remember one thing: the book works. It worked so well that it sold millions of copies and generated HUGE fan interest to the point that it begat the show! Therefore, if you are going to change the books, it should be for a good reason. And most of the time the reason is really good (budget, story constraints, time) but that does not always mean I have to like it.

For me, I look at the show as an "Alternate Reality" Westroes - some things have changed, some have stayed the same and I judge each bit of it on its own. Nothing wrong with that.

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Not everything they do that doesn't come from the books is annoying. The Pod scene was annoying because it (a) serves no plot purpose, it doesn't "show" us anything about the characters or advance the story in any way.....and (B) it is doubly annoying to take time away from important plot points for a long scene that does nothing to advance the plot or show any insight. Yes, the Merenese knot line was a nice insider joke, but it wasn't worth the very long scene that could have been used for example to make the Arya/Hot Pie/BWB scene longer and more poignant.

I had no problem w/the moving the chair scene because it was showing you something about the duel for power, how Tywin Lannister holds all the power now and eveyrone else is a toady and how Cersei and Tyrion are in competition and it did also advance the plot because Tyrion got named Master of Coin.

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Being from India, i'm quite unfortunate to not have access to the latest episodes, well atleast legally. So i generally download a torrent of the episodes and watch them (Can't blame me, who can wait!), and the rip i downloaded seemed to have started the Bear and the Maiden Fair a bit earlier than the credits started, resulting in the last few dialogues (and unfortunately Jaime's scream) being unheard. Any kind soul here to fill up the gaps for me? Or a link to a transcript of the episode?

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Being from India, i'm quite unfortunate to not have access to the latest episodes, well atleast legally. So i generally download a torrent of the episodes and watch them (Can't blame me, who can wait!), and the rip i downloaded seemed to have started the Bear and the Maiden Fair a bit earlier than the credits started, resulting in the last few dialogues (and unfortunately Jaime's scream) being unheard. Any kind soul here to fill up the gaps for me? Or a link to a transcript of the episode?

Locke says: Have you got something to say? Careful, you don't want to say the wrong thing. You're nothing without your daddy, and your daddy ain't here. Never forget that. Here, this should help you remember!

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  • Why are wights artists now (the bodies)? Not a big deal again, but kinda just silly.

They did the exact same thing in the first episode of Season 1, only then it was with human parts.

Wait, did Pod have sex with them or not? I thought he was too shy to do it, and just lied about it to Tyrion and Bronn.

2. Podrick. This was incredibly funny. But, also immensly stupid. Podrick has become Catelyn of this episode, in character suicide thing. I like Podric from the book, I like Podric being shy and quiet as he was in the show, but to imagine him as some sex symbol that can make whores forget money, is too much for my taste

He's not a sex god :cool4: nobody is the first time. Tyrion arranged the whole stuff, emphasizing that he left a lot of money for the whores... why do you think Ros was looking at Pod like that and smiling??? just because he was a new client?? it was a little mischief going on between her and Tyrion. That's it.

Quit pirating and pay for the show... That way, It will make more money. have more budget and be a better product.

Or... you could go to a forum and whine because someone disrupted your theft.

You understand of course that except US, almost nobody gets the episode immediatly, some countries get it the next day, some after a week, I heard in Australia it takes over 6 months, and some unlucky few can't get it at all!! HBO doesn't offer the option of online purchase, so what are we supposed to do??? wait a year?? I buy the Blu-Rays, but I also download the episodes immediatly, like many others do. Actually, there was a study made, that people who bother to download an illegal torrent, are more likely to buy CDs/DVDs, then casual watchers, because they are more interested in that stuff then others.

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Why is Ghost following Sam?

To possibly have a decent explanation for how he ends up on the other side of the Wall after Jon goes over the top.

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She saw the Hound at Winterfell, when the King visited and they traveled together back to KL, that place was one of the places they stopped.

It's even the same set, both inside and outside.

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I assume that is the inn where the Hound brought Micah back dead on his horse and Ned was forced to kill Lady.

I loved the Pod stuff. Showed great camaraderie between the three men and a great reference to the Mereenese Knot. Also liked it better than the books where Tyrion never really thanked Pod for playing such an important role in saving him. Plus, it was a very Tyrion thing to do to thank him with whores. I'm starting to like shades of the TV Tyrion better than book Tyrion.

I think some of you are happy mainly because there was so much fan service. But I'm enjoying the series as usual, so whatever floats your boat.

I actually thought this scene was fine and I have found most of the sex scenes pointless so far.

I have said for quite awhile that show Tyrion is far more likable than book Tyrion.

For Theon/Jaime, I think the show and books are sympatico. You are supposed to enjoy watching the villians get theirs. Americans especially have this sick fascination that once the hero is justified, watching torture porn on television is perfectly reasonable because the victim "deserved it." The point with these scenes is you walk away uncomfortable. You're not going to like Jaime's comeuppance because you'll learn about Aerys and his crazy pyromancer, and the impossible situation he was in choosing between his sister, father, and king. Same goes for Theon where he truly doesn't deserve the damnation he receives.

????

Um ok. I found the little torture shown so far to make me turn my head away and reading it in the book I felt horrible for Theon, even if he was a snake. I sincerely hoped for some redemption for him.

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Being from India, i'm quite unfortunate to not have access to the latest episodes, well atleast legally. So i generally download a torrent of the episodes and watch them (Can't blame me, who can wait!), and the rip i downloaded seemed to have started the Bear and the Maiden Fair a bit earlier than the credits started, resulting in the last few dialogues (and unfortunately Jaime's scream) being unheard. Any kind soul here to fill up the gaps for me? Or a link to a transcript of the episode?

Here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7XUz6Xnzlg

Start at about 6:39 I'd say.

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A quick view also on the White Walkers horse head death spiral. I dont think its too odd for the show, in the pilot the bodies were also arranged in a pattern, as well as the season 3 premier with the nightswatchmen with his head in his hands. so there is a precedent.

I think its is an attempt to convey that the Walkers are not just mindless oafs but something mysterious, something intelligent, and something more. Also adds to there creepy factor.

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You understand of course that except US, almost nobody gets the episode immediatly, some countries get it the next day, some after a week, I heard in Australia it takes over 6 months, and some unlucky few can't get it at all!! HBO doesn't offer the option of online purchase, so what are we supposed to do??? wait a year?? I buy the Blu-Rays, but I also download the episodes immediatly, like many others do. Actually, there was a study made, that people who bother to download an illegal torrent, are more likely to buy CDs/DVDs, then casual watchers, because they are more interested in that stuff then others.

Well said. It definitely is a faster way of spreading word of the show too.

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A quick view also on the White Walkers horse head death spiral. I dont think its too odd for the show, in the pilot the bodies were also arranged in a pattern, as well as the season 3 premier with the nightswatchmen with his head in his hands. so there is a precedent.

I think its is an attempt to convey that the Walkers are not just mindless oafs but something mysterious, something intelligent, and something more. Also adds to there creepy factor.

I agree. I like the creepy patterns White Walkers did in season 1, nice to see them again. It shows they have symbols and communication, meaning a culture of some sorts.

Its no different than Westeros/Essos people mounting heads, haging slaves, etc. It sends a message.

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This is going to sound wierd, but I liked the bit with Pod and the whores. In Tyrions mind he was doing what his big brother did for him, buying him a whore to fuck. He sees it as a show of affection.

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Did anyone else get giddy at the mere mention of Rhaegar or was it just me?

I definitely did! I wish HBO could put together a short digital clip showing the Battle at the Trident or something like that. I don't think it's feasible, but I know they've done it for shows like the Wire.

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DID NOT LIKE:

It makes NO SENSE why they changed Edmure's blunder from Tywin to the Mountain....like...what?!?!? Especially for non-book readers, this would have explained in 2 sentences how Tywin+Tyrells were able to show up last minute at the Battle of the Blackwater and turn the tides to victory. ALSO, this shows how close Stannis was to actually being on the Iron Throne, and how huge of a blunder this was. For the show runners to change it....is just senseless. I mean literally all they did was change Tywin to Mountain and fords to mill and blackwater to now i have a mill.

Things like this just piss me off so much.

The Pod scenes were an incredibly waste of time. Things like this also really piss me off because these precious minutes could easily be allocated to story lines and characters far more deserving....than fucking random whores.

Did not like the song at the end of the episode after such an intense moment. They should have played it off like after Ned got his head chopped off, but I imagine they will do this for the RW. And although Jaime is my (and many others' favorite character), many non-book readers probably still don't like Jaime at this point, which I imagine is why they may have decided to go this route.

Other than those things, this was a strong episode, far, FAR better than episode 2, which was terrible. I think the season is only going to get better, everything coming up looks to be pretty intense.

Edited by ckal

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