[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion

[songbirdsings]

Am I the only one who thinks that by using Locke to dismember Jamie, that this will be a way to give the "viewers" a reason for Bolton's part in the Red Wedding? Obviously, Tywin will be pissed and we know what fate awaited the Goat, when The Mountain came back to Harrenhal. Since all that is cut out and it's Roose's man who committed the crime, I can see Roose trying to avoid a whole Rains of Dreadfort and offer up the betrayal or at least agree to participate.

[MisunderstoodFrey]

he questions her because it would be crazy to give away a dragon.

[MisunderstoodFrey]

Am I the only one who thinks that by using Locke to dismember Jamie, that this will be a way to give the "viewers" a reason for Bolton's part in the Red Wedding? Obviously, Tywin will be pissed and we know what fate awaited the Goat, when The Mountain came back to Harrenhal. Since all that is cut out and it's Roose's man who committed the crime, I can see Roose trying to avoid a whole Rains of Dreadfort and offer up the betrayal or at least agree to participate.

I don't agree. Roose is calculating; he does things if they are to his advantage. He doesn't believe Robb will win the war and subsequently uses the situation to his advantage. It would ruin the character to have him do such a thing for anyone's hand.

[ShigellaSand]

In general, a very good episode. Loved the Small Council scene with the chairs, of course, and the ending. Very good Jaime/Brienne scenes across the board. The whorehouse scene felt pointless, but I did enjoy the bonding afterwards. Setting things up both to strengthen the Tyrion/Pod bond, and to make it sting even more for Tyrion when Bronn won't be his champion against the Mountain. I liked the farewell to Hot Pie - even if it did make me worry for him. Simple contentment just doesn't happen in Westeros...

The treatment of Edmure was too harsh, I think. Doesn't he get even a shred of sympathy for just having lost his father? Instead he gets shoved aside by the Blackfish, and yelled at by Robb, and then he's not even included in the "remembering Hoster" scene between Catelyn and the Blackfish. I hope he gets some more nuanced stuff in upcoming episodes.

Also, did not like the Stannis scene. I'm not going to say he's ruined based on one scene, but I hope it's not the start of a trend.

[Don Roberto]

I think at this point in time the Boltons are still loyal Stark men, or at least loyal to the cause of the North. I don't remember quite well how premeditated Roose's betrayal was in the books, but I don't think so far in the show he's even cogitated an alliance with Tywin. I don't even think he plans on using Jaime as a hostage, given his talk of revenge with Karstark in 3x01. Matters little the state of a man marked for the axe, so long as he's alive.

[boojam]

The Mereneese Knot was what George called his problem of getting the story in ADWD together (and therefor a big part of why the book took so long to finish). Since he had to scrap his original idea of there being a 5 year gap after ASOS he had trouble with the timing of when characters arrived at Merreen and how they would affect each other.

The funny thing is HBO show-wise, in two more years, is going to , sort of, defacto, arrive at The Mereneese Knot!

[boojam]

We are telling the same thing. Sorry my English is poor so i can't explain myself. I'm saying that Barristan should have never question Dany in front of the strangers. This is out of character. He has been in hunderds of meetings and he must have learned not to question your king/queen in front of the strangers.

But that's , I don't remember the exact words, is exactly from the book.

[Raksha the Demon]

In general, a very good episode. Loved the Small Council scene with the chairs, of course, and the ending. Very good Jaime/Brienne scenes across the board. The whorehouse scene felt pointless, but I did enjoy the bonding afterwards. Setting things up both to strengthen the Tyrion/Pod bond, and to make it sting even more for Tyrion when Bronn won't be his champion against the Mountain. I liked the farewell to Hot Pie - even if it did make me worry for him. Simple contentment just doesn't happen in Westeros...

The treatment of Edmure was too harsh, I think. Doesn't he get even a shred of sympathy for just having lost his father? Instead he gets shoved aside by the Blackfish, and yelled at by Robb, and then he's not even included in the "remembering Hoster" scene between Catelyn and the Blackfish. I hope he gets some more nuanced stuff in upcoming episodes.

Also, did not like the Stannis scene. I'm not going to say he's ruined based on one scene, but I hope it's not the start of a trend.

I don't remember the Blackfish being so obnoxious to Edmure during the funeral in the books. Would he really berate Edmure in public as he did in the show - Edmure may be a callow young man and the Blackfish's nephew, but he is also the new head of House Tully and the Blackfish's liege lord.

Sort of a transitional, move-the-plot-along episode for me.

Dany's arc - thankfully, she's not fussing and floundering as she did last season. I'm actually enjoying her scenes; there is tension and suspense and we can see a queen in her. Loved Jorah's bringing up the "and Rhaegar died" line, great delivery!

Musical Chairs scene - another dramatic high point, thanks to the great acting and direction. I swear, the Council behaved like bratty kids (as well as one-upping politicians) and Tywin the dignified dad; with Cersei and Tyrion as the squabbling siblings. The scene did especially well in showing Tywin as the center of power in the capital, at least for now. Points to Tyrion for being resilient!

Jaime and Brienne at the end were great; good direction in hearing the cries not only of Brienne, dragged off to be raped, but the men who she was battering; showing her strength and stubbornness. And the buildup to the loss of Jaime's hand was excellent.

Pod/Tyrion/Bronn - did not impress me much with the scenes with the prostitutes. I guess HBO has a certain sex/prostitutes/skin quota in every GOT season. Not to mention the Ros appearance.

Jon and the Wildlings. Kind of bored me.

Looking forward to the next episode...

[mafalda]

A friend who didnt read the books thought Iwan Rheon is a bastard of Ned Stark :))

Lol! My bf's friend is sooo confused at all of this! I love hearing what non bookies think what is going on with this!

Correct me if i'm wrong, but around this time in ASOS, don't Jon and Ygritte start getting down and dirty on a regular basis? Till now there's been no indication of that on the show. But i believe that, along with Jon's feelings of conflict between what he felt for Ygritte and his honour and duty, was one of the stronger points from the Beyond the Wall thread from the books (Especially since they've toned down the characters of Mance and Tormund). Any idea if they would bring in all that later into the season?

I think this will happen in episode 5, which is titled "Kissed By Fire". Becuase Ygritte's red hair is considered lucky by the wildlings, they say redheads are kissed by fire. So this episode will have a lot to do with Ygritte. And of course, if Ygritte is in it, so is Jon ;)

I don't know if it has already been said in this very long topic, if so, excuse me. I'm a little concerned with the Ramsay-Theon story line. After the quite not impressive first and second episode this third one seems pretti awsome to me, with the BF, the heartbreaking farewell of Arya and HotPie and the very funny Tyrion-Pod-Bronn scene in the whorehouse; but what's going on with Ramsay and Theon? How could they kill the bastard so early in the series? I mean, we don't even know which importance Ramsay will have in TWOW or in ADOS, so, what will they do with the Winterfell sotryline of ADWD? I think also that these few scenes of Theon in prison could not give the idea of the very big sufferance that this character got in the books (wich is very important in his psychological developpement, think about all the Reek thing and the depersonalization) to everyone who just watches the HBO series and does not read the book series. And in the end, who the hell is the lad who saves him? What do you think about it?

They didn't kill the bastard. Um. I don't know if you have been reading the boards or not, I'd hate to spoil this for you, so if you don't want to be spoiled don't read beyond this point (sorry I don't know how to do the spoiler thing)

The guy who helps Theon escape, and rescues him is the same guy. He's known as "boy" in all the credits, but it's obvious that he is actually Ramsay Bolton. Theon doesn't know who he is, because Boy has not officially revealed his true identity. Remember in Book 2, Ramsay totally messes with Theon's mind and tricks him into believing he is someone else. Since we didn't get any of that last season, they are maming up for it this season.

They ought to pay the actor who plays Ser Barristan to get into a little better shape.

Hahahaha! I did notice his huge pot belly! He was way slimmer in Season 1. For him to be the greatest knight in all of Westeros, he does need to be in a bit better shape. I hate to say it, but it's true!

[DaveSnow House Stark]

I don't remember the Blackfish being so obnoxious to Edmure during the funeral in the books. Would he really berate Edmure in public as he did in the show - Edmure may be a callow young man and the Blackfish's nephew, but he is also the new head of House Tully and the Blackfish's liege lord.

Sort of a transitional, move-the-plot-along episode for me.

Dany's arc - thankfully, she's not fussing and floundering as she did last season. I'm actually enjoying her scenes; there is tension and suspense and we can see a queen in her. Loved Jorah's bringing up the "and Rhaegar died" line, great delivery!

Musical Chairs scene - another dramatic high point, thanks to the great acting and direction. I swear, the Council behaved like bratty kids (as well as one-upping politicians) and Tywin the dignified dad; with Cersei and Tyrion as the squabbling siblings. The scene did especially well in showing Tywin as the center of power in the capital, at least for now. Points to Tyrion for being resilient!

Jaime and Brienne at the end were great; good direction in hearing the cries not only of Brienne, dragged off to be raped, but the men who she was battering; showing her strength and stubbornness. And the buildup to the loss of Jaime's hand was excellent.

Pod/Tyrion/Bronn - did not impress me much with the scenes with the prostitutes. I guess HBO has a certain sex/prostitutes/skin quota in every GOT season. Not to mention the Ros appearance.

Jon and the Wildlings. Kind of bored me.

Looking forward to the next episode...

Really? Blaming HBO for the amount of sex in the series? I believe the books had a lot more sex than the show has. Did you skip those parts of the books or were they censored when you read them?

[ShigellaSand]

I think this will happen in episode 5, which is titled "Kissed By Fire". Becuase Ygritte's red hair is considered lucky by the wildlings, they say redheads are kissed by fire. So this episode will have a lot to do with Ygritte. And of course, if Ygritte is in it, so is Jon ;)

I think that title's going to do double duty, so to speak - Ygritte/Jon, certainly, but also the Beric/Hound duel and explanation of how Beric is still "alive." Fire and kisses in both.

[Joyful Union]

Did anyone else notice that Craster looked a lot filthier this episode?

I thought during season 2 that he looked a bit to clean and groomed.

[drstrangelove]

Can there be a separate thread for the complainers and whiners?

So only fanboys are allowed in this thread?

[mafalda]

So only fanboys are allowed in this thread?

Oakenfist may end up on his own proposed thread! Light humor, light humor, that's all..

I think that title's going to do double duty, so to speak - Ygritte/Jon, certainly, but also the Beric/Hound duel and explanation of how Beric is still "alive." Fire and kisses in both.

Oh yeah, I forgot all about that!

[PatrickStormborn]

he questions her because it would be crazy to give away a dragon.

Well he didn't question any of Aerys' crazy behaviour. That's the point. Barristan, as a member of the Kinsguard, is used to not voicing his opinion. It only worked in the books because Barristan hadn't joined Dany's queensguard.

[JMJ]

Well he didn't question any of Aerys' crazy behaviour. That's the point. Barristan, as a member of the Kinsguard, is used to not voicing his opinion. It only worked in the books because Barristan hadn't joined Dany's queensguard.

One could also argue that between getting kicked out of the KG and showing up at Dany's, both in the books and in the show, Selmy has likely had quite a big "awakening" and change in outlook. Getting kicked out of the KG was a huge slap in the face for him, and it's changed how he does things. We get a glimpse of this in his POV chapters, IMO as he has to take matters in his own hands.

[Summerhall Sleeper]

Arya's comment to the hound had to do with the death of Micah...

[Jon Icefyre]

Well he didn't question any of Aerys' crazy behaviour. That's the point. Barristan, as a member of the Kinsguard, is used to not voicing his opinion. It only worked in the books because Barristan hadn't joined Dany's queensguard.

Ser Barristan's situation with Dany is not nearly the same as with the other rulers he's served. The kings he served prior to Dany already had things that establish you as King of Westeros like The Iron Throne, a hand, council members, other KG members, Bannermen, and a Royal army, along with the alligance of the seven kingdoms, at this point Dany really has none of that. The fact of the matter is Dany is stiil a lost young girl that's a foriegner in a foreign land trying to gather the resources needed to take Westeros. She really knows nothing about Westeros or what it will take to win it and with Ser Barristan's experience fighting in multiple wars and serving multiple kings at this point he definitetly knows a lot more about ruling westeros and what it will take to succesfully take the Iron throne than Dany or Ser Jorah does for that matter. At that point all Dany had was Ser Jorah, Selmy, and few Dothraki remnants, this makes Ser Barristan's role a lot bigger than just being her simple yes man, he has to advise her, guide her, and yes in some cases arguing against her(for her own good) while still leading her as if she was his own granddaughter. And I definitely do think Ser Barristan feels a grandfather vibe towards Dany. Like Ser Davos once said, "Loyal service means telling hard truths." Ser Barristan was in a situation that he thought required his immediate intervention because Dany was in the proccess of negotiating exchanging one of her dragons, he really didn't have anytime to spare and honestly I don't blame him.

If Dany was embarrassed she really has no one to blame but herself, she obviously knew she didn't have enough money to buy all 8,000 slaves beforehand so she should have at least told Ser Barristan and Ser Jorah what her plan was prior to the meeting, and that little embarrasment would have never happened. She should probably show a little more grattitude at the fact that Ser Barristan is even offering to help her instead of bitching, moaning, and threatning to part ways wih him as if she'd even stand a chance of taking the throne without Ser Barristan's help. Smh tv Dany really pisses me off.

Edited April 16, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[PatrickStormborn]

Ser Barristan's situation with Dany is not nearly the same as with the other rulers he's served. The kings he served prior to Dany already had things that establish you as King of Westeros like The Iron throne, a hand, Council members, other KG members, Bannermen, and a Royal army, along with the alligance of the seven kingdoms, at this point Dany really has none of that. The fact of the matter is Dany is stiil a lost young girl that's a foriegner in a foreign land trying to gather the resources needed to take Westeros. She really knows nothing about Westeros or what it will take to win it and with Ser Barristans experience fighting in multiple wars and serving multiple kings at this point he definitetly knows a lot more about ruling westeros and what it will take to succesfully take the Iron throne than Dany or Ser Jorah does for that matter. Right now all Dany has is Ser Jorah, Selmy, and few Dothraki remenants, this make Ser Barristan's role a lot bigger than just being her simple yes man, he has to advise her, guide her, and yes in some cases lead her as if she was his own granddaughter. Like Ser Davos once said, "Loyal service means telling hard truths." Ser Barristan was in a situation that he thought required his immediate intervention because Dany was in the proccess of negotiating exchanging one of her Dragons, he really didn't have anytime to spare and honestly I don't blame him.

Again, to reiterate: the point is that Barristan has decades of experience of controlling what he says. That's why it's out of character.

If Dany was embarrassed she really has no one to blame but herself, she obviously knew she didn't have enough money to buy all 8,00 slaves before hand so she should have at least told Ser Barristan and Ser Jorah what her plan was prior to the meeting, and that little embarrasment would have never happened. She should probably show a little more grattitude at the fact that Ser Barristan is even offering to help her instead of bitching, moaning, and threatning to part ways wih him as if she'd even stand a chance of taking the throne without Ser Barristan's support. Smh tv Dany really pisses me off.

Do you not realise that Dany WANTED Barristan and Jorah to react like that? If they acted like they didn't care, Kraznys would not believe her. But she schools them afterwards so that they don't do it again. Dany needed them to make a scene, but she needed them to know not to do it again. She used her knowledge of their personalities to her political advantage, and she used it as an opportunity to teach them a lesson. It was a very smart move, and shows her political awareness.

Also LOL Dany owes Barristan NOTHING, and she'd EASILY win Westeros without him. She has three dragons; one knight isn't going to make a difference. So maybe you should think a little bit harder before you post anything about Daenerys in future.

[Don Roberto]

Well he didn't question any of Aerys' crazy behaviour. That's the point. Barristan, as a member of the Kinsguard, is used to not voicing his opinion. It only worked in the books because Barristan hadn't joined Dany's queensguard.

I feel Barristan, both in the books and so far in the series, has been more of a Hand than a mere queensguard to Dany. Aerys had plenty of people in his court, and he was a young knight among many, while Dany is a green queen surrounded by strangers. Sure, in the books he doesn't usually say what's in his mind without being asked to, but it doesn't strike me as too out-of-character his shock to Dany's trade of a dragon.