[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion

[teemo]

The good:

Jorah/Barristan interactions. I felt like I was reading the books. The tension between them is perfect.

Everything with Dany pretty much. Leaving a cliffhanger like the books in having people think she's actually going to go through with giving away Drogon is great.

Jaime and Brienne dialogue and chemistry is spot-on

Beautiful Tully funeral

I think Edmure and the Blackwish are well cast

Theon out of the torture room and into the wild

"You little bastard" line is just PERFECT. And Iwan Rheon is PERFECT!

Deftly setting a lot of plans in motion all at once at the small council

I really like Hivju as Tormund

The Blackfish talking about fighting with Hoster

Iron Bank and Meereeneese Knot nod

No Shae

Jorah's famous line about Rhaegar, gave me chills

The Bad (some is really nitpicky):

Stannis' character is destroyed

Van Houten isn't so great of an actress, at least as Melisandre. Very weak in this scene.

Whore scene was a waste of seven minutes

The scene with Arya was too short

Dany was nicer to Missandei in the books (she was more like, "OMG hai. you're free now," not "you are mine now. and you're prolly gonna get killed)

Robb laughing at Hoster's funeral. Um, what?

The White Walkers and their art

No Vargo Hoat ;( I understand why, it makes sense, but it's still sad.

I don't like the rock 'Bear and the Maiden Fair'

The one minute chair dragging scene. Stupid.

Talisa talks

Littlefinger did more than just borrow money.

[Forgottenire]

Was Missandei not weirded out that Dany understood what Valar morghulis meant?

Dany had stayed in Bravvos when she was in the house with the red door. Book One. Her first chapter.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Valar morghulis is probably a common phrase. Plus why would she say something to Dany if she didn't think she'd understand what on earth she was talking about?

[Dragon Doll]

Even if it did confuse Missandei, she's cleaver, she knows not to show it.

I do recall she was a little startled when she heard Dany speak High Valyrian (in the book, but she was just a kid in the book).

Slaves don't question their masters.

[boojam]

Dany had stayed in Bravvos when she was in the house with the red door. Book One. Her first chapter.

It's straight from the book, well except for a zinger.

Missandei has been speaking to Dany and says Valar Morghulis, and Dany replies with the standard response Valar Dohaeris, except Dany says in in the common tongue, or at least George writes it that way. So Dany is asking Missandei what her name is. Missandei says O! Because she realizes Dany is speaking in High Valyrian.

(Well one would have suspected that a Valyrian could speak High Valyrian, tho she probably learned Low Valyrian in Braavos first, I don't know she might have learned HV first.)

George makes it explicit in the book that Dany and Missandei have a conversation in High Valyrian (not Low Valyrian). It's hard to tell from the passage how much HV is spoken.

The show has taken the tact that Dany apparently does not speak Low Valyrian , tho by the visual clues, as several people have pointed out it is evident.

We lost a plot element George had used, but seems they will make up for it next week.

D and D do some odd things with the prose narrative, but it should work out.

The response Dany gives in the show is "All men must serve." "But we are not men."

Dave and Dan are channeling Tolkien.

[boojam]

Yes Drogon was almost killed in the slave pit, and even though Drogon did indeed leave with Dany the dragon's intial reason for being there wasn't to take her away, it was to hunt because Drogon smelled blood and death from the fighting in the pits, it wasn't even aware of Dany's presence initially. It wasn't until after Dany ran into the pit and made herself known to/attepmted to tame Drogon that they then left together.

It was pretty clear to me when the pit attendant stabbed Drogon with a spear, fire pouring out, it was more like a nick.

Dany pulls the spear out when shes on Drogon.*

A lot of argument of just how big Drogon is, George gives a wingspan, but no other dimensions. There have been arguments , round this site, that Drogon is as big as a large horse or as big as and elephant.

Anyway GRRM makes it clear that a grown dragon is very hard to kill, tho it can be done.

Lot of Dragon lore GRRM has never explicitly explained.

One second they seem vulnerable the next second could not kill em with an H bomb.

George is just that way.

*By the by what was that stupid pit attendant thinking?!

"O a big dragon just landing right by me, I'm gonna go stab him!"

Well guess they don't hire the smartest pit attendants!

Edited April 17, 2013 by boojam

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

It was pretty clear to me when the pit attendant stabbed Drogon with a spear, fire pouring out, it was more like a nick.

Dany pulls the spear out when shes on Drogon.*

A lot of argument of just how big Drogon is, George gives a wingspan, but no other dimensions. There have been arguments , round this site, that Drogon is as big as a large horse or as big as and elephant.

Anyway GRRM makes it clear that a grown dragon is very hard to kill, tho it can be done.

Lot of Dragon lore GRRM has never explicitly explained.

One second they seem vulnerable the next second could not kill em with an H bomb.

George is just that way.

*By the by what was that stupid pit attendant thinking?!

"O a big dragon just landing right by me, I'm gonna go stab him!"

Well guess they don't hire the smartest pit attendants!

Nothing anybody on Essos does is smart. They have soldiers fighting on stilts of all things.

[Jon Icefyre]

It was pretty clear to me when the pit attendant stabbed Drogon with a spear, fire pouring out, it was more like a nick.

Dany pulls the spear out when shes on Drogon.*

A lot of argument of just how big Drogon is, George gives a wingspan, but no other dimensions. There have been arguments , round this site, that Drogon is as big as a large horse or as big as and elephant.

Anyway GRRM makes it clear that a grown dragon is very hard to kill, tho it can be done.

Lot of Dragon lore GRRM has never explicitly explained.

One second they seem vulnerable the next second could not kill em with an H bomb.

George is just that way.

*By the by what was that stupid pit attendant thinking?!

"O a big dragon just landing right by me, I'm gonna go stab him!"

Well guess they don't hire the smartest pit attendants!

It wasn't just fire it was fire and blood pouring out thus the reason why Dany says "fire made flesh" when she observes Drogon's wounds. If you look up Drogon on http://awoiaf.wester...ndex.php/Drogon it describes the scene as, "An animal handler named Harghaz attacked Drogon with a long spear and came close to slaying Drogon." Now obviously I know wiki isn't 100% concrete in terms of what GRRM has actually said but they get the vast majority of things right and the scene obviously left an impression to some that Drogons life was most definitely in danger. Immediatly after Harghaz stabs his spear into Drogon's neck Dany calls out, "NO!" suggesting that she was fearful for Drogon's well being and then right after she screams no Ser barristan tells her to, "Look away." As if he didn't want her to watch what was going to happen to Drogon, so it seems even Ser Barristan thought Drogon might die. So I mean that spear blow to the neck obviously left a pretty serious impression.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[boojam]

It wasn't just fire it was fire and blood pouring out thus the reason why Dany says "fire made flesh" when she observes Drogon's wounds. If you look up Drogon on http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Drogon it describes the scene as, "An animal handler named Harghaz attacked Drogon with a long spear and came close to slaying Drogon." Now obviously I know wiki isn't 100% concrete in terms of what GRRM has actually said but they get most things right and the scene obviously left an impression to some that Drogons life was most definitely in danger. Immediatly after Harghaz stabs his spear into Drogon's neck Dany calls out, "NO!" suggesting that she was fearful for Drogon's well being and then right after she screams no Ser barristan tells her to, "Look away." As if he didn't want her to watch what was going to happen to Drogon, so it seems even Ser Barristan thought Drogon might die. So I mean that spear blow to the neck obviously left a pretty serious impression.

Well I just reread the passage, and there is black blood, GRRM makes clear Drogon gets hurt*, then he roasts all his attackers (why they tried that I don't know), Dany has some pretty close moments with Drogon, but she does get the spear out and mysteriously gets him into 'mount' position, GRRM must have been typing fast at that part because some details seem lost. Anyway Drogon takes off and is a away almost no worse for the ware.

*But consider later Quentyn Martell attempt to steal Viserion to his everlasting cripy-ness!

Any way the guards in the anteroom where Viserion and Rhaegal are captive use when they escape , one would suspect industrial strength cross bows, on them, the quarrels just bounce off. Now one would think you could put more momentum and energy into a quarrel than a spear?

So maybe Drogon in the pit encounter was maybe still not mature enough, cause through out the books GRRM makes it clear that a more grown up Drogon would have felt the spear as a chigger bite!

Edited April 17, 2013 by boojam

[Jon Icefyre]

Well I just reread the passage, and there is black blood, GRRM makes clear Drogon gets hurt*, then he roasts all his attackers (why they tried that I don't know), Dany has some pretty close moments with Drogon, but she does get the spear out and mysteriously gets him into 'mount' position, GRRM must have been typing fast at that part because some details seem lost. Anyway Drogon takes off and is a away almost no worse for the ware.

*But consider later Quentyn Martell attempt to steal Viserion to his everlasting cripy-ness!

Any way the guards in the anteroom where Viserion and Rhaegal are captive use when they escape , one would suspect industrial strength cross bows, on them, the quarrels just bounce off. Now one would think you could put more momentum and energy into a quarrel than a spear?

So maybe Drogon in the pit encounter was maybe still not mature enough, cause through out the books GRRM makes it clear that a more grown up Drogon would have felt the spear as a chigger bite!

Haha ya I totally agree, infact the whole point I was trying to make is that Drogon is most definitely not fully grown yet, compared to Aegon l's Balerion the dread who Drogon is said to be the reincarnation of.

Edited April 17, 2013 by Jon Icefyre

[Joyful Union]

Whore scene was a waste of seven minutes

Robb laughing at Hoster's funeral. Um, what?

The White Walkers and their art

To be fair, the whore scene wasnt seven minutes long at all.

I agree, there really trying to make Robb come off as a dick.

Maybe D&D know something about the WW we dont?

[Starklefire.]

I think, overall this episode was one of the best in the TV show, and I actually think that this is probably the closest the show has ever gotten to the books in terms of plot development.

Edmure and Brynden are setup well I think (you have no idea how excited I was to see Riverrun on the credits too) I've heard people complaining that Brynden is too mean and Edmure is too inadequate, but for time's sake It was done well, and I really enjoyed the funeral scene. I think Edmure will be lightened as a character, either by him doing something that doesn't cause problems, or by Cat ensuring Robb that Edmure has a kind heart.

I was also very impressed at how accurate they were with Edmure's failure to just hold Riverrun, they explained what he'd done wrong in less than 4 minutes, and it made sense. The mountain would still be a high value target and killing him would increase morale, so I can understand why Robb would be furious, especially since he lost 208 fighting men to hold a stone mill. Another nice touch was introducing the Lannister hostages, so methinky they're going to be keeping Karstark's betrayal.

The Pod Scene, whilst uneccessary for the major plot points, does provide a lighthearted feel to the episode to juxtapose the dramatic side of things, which seemed to be a major theme for the episode here. And I actually think it helped attach to the character more, since Bronn, Tyrion and Pod are all going to be heavily featured in King's Landing, and it helped establish a "buddy" feel to their relationship. Also, props for the Mereenese knot joke.

I enjoyed Daenerys' scene quite a bit, especially the "Rhaegar fought valiently, Rhaegar fought nobly, and Rhaegar died" line. Changing the plaza of punishment to the walk of punishment doesn't bother me in the slightest, and I think they captured the negotiation fairly well, if a bit too quickly. But they kept the same tone from the books, especially Dany's anger at Barristan and Jorah questioning them, and I like the hint that she understood the bastardised Valyrian Kraznys was speaking.

I have to say though, I'm not impressed with the casting choice for Missandei, she just doesn't feel right to me, her acting seems a bit flat.

Ah, the glorious Theon scenes, I've seen a lot of complaints about these, but I'm happy that they're going in this direction rather than removing Alfie for two years and dropping him back in again, I think it'll be interesting to see how the mind games between Ramsay and Theon play out, since we already know that Ramsay pretended to be friendly, and build up a kind of Stockholme syndrome relationship with Theon, making him believe that whatever Ramsay did to Theon, he did because Theon had made him do it by "misbehaving". So I think they're doing that well. The actor hasn't had a chance to come into his own yet, and I definitely think that he can play a sadist like Ramsay, but he doesn't look too menacing, and maybe how they first introduced him (as a broomsweep) might end up reducing the impact of this character being sinister. (Loved the forshadowing though "You little bastard")

Jon's scene, so far i'm liking them, as slow as they're going. I'm still not seeing Ciaran Hinds as being my Mance Rayder though, he looks like he's had a stroke, he's far too blunt and his jaw looks too square cut, i'm loving Tormund though, and I think sending him to the Wall with Jon will be a good time to build up their bonding relationship. (We'll know when he makes a joke about his manhood and says HAR! That they did a good job) I also like what they're doing with the White Walkers, adding the Artist element to make them seem more Alien to us.

The small council chamber made me laugh out loud, just the facial expressions of Cersei, Varys and Tyrion made it worth it. It kinda shows that Tywin's kids are reduced to just that, kids, in his presence.

Arya's scenes might be some of my favourite in the series, Thoros does a brilliant job and has a sort of Jack Sparrow feel to him, and the goodbye between Arya and Hotpie was done well and made me laugh a fair bit, especially Gendry's "Yes..it is". I also love Anguy's banter with the Hound.

As for Locke and his merry men (who are brilliant singers it would seem) I think I might prefer those to the Bloody Mummers, Vargo was a pretty uneccessary character, and we already know that the story is going to the same place (Locke will take Jaime sans hand to Roose at Harrenhal, where Qyburn will take care of his wound, and Roose will meet with Jaime and that whole business will go down, setting the scene for the RW) It was a nice touch to keep the Sapphires line in, and I think that Locke has more reasoning than Vargo to cut Jaime's hand off, since it's perfectly reasonable for him to believe Jaime is going to be beheaded, so it makes no difference that he has 1 hand or 2, it was just a way to show Jaime that he wasn't fucking around. Nicolaj did a brilliant job with that scene too, especially the scream, at first the realization, then the pain kicking in.

And of course, that ending. I didn't like the song (it wasn't done very well if you ask me) but again I did like the sudden change in tone between Jaime's loss and the upbeat Bear and the Maiden fair.

So far, my only concern Is Stannis' storyline, i'm a Stannis fan, and imagine my surprise to see him grovelling on the beach to Melisandre about how he needs some lovin' I also didn't like him bringing up Renly like he did, at this point in the story he's meant to be Grieving for Renly, not getting angry with him. Stannis isn't needy like that. It's such a shame too, I love Steven Dillane's portrayal of Stannis, and this is more a writing issue than anything else.

Overall, brilliant episode.

[Khal Porno]

To be fair, the whore scene wasnt seven minutes long at all.

I agree, there really trying to make Robb come off as a dick.

Maybe D&D know something about the WW we dont?

In fact, the part with the actual whores was only a little over a minute and a half! Yes I timed it, because of all the people complaining.

Also, it doesn't look like he laughs, he just makes a frustrated exhale and smiles while he does it. It's definitely not a "laugh." More like "oof."

Edited April 17, 2013 by The Duke of J-Town

[Currawong]

I think, overall this episode was one of the best in the TV show, and I actually think that this is probably the closest the show has ever gotten to the books in terms of plot development.

...

Overall, brilliant episode.

:agree: Very well said on so many matters. I wish they still had the 'Like' button :)

[kephv]

No, she didn't.

yep, youre right again. she just says dracarys.

I can't see why though. And it makes little sense that a mother would forget to name her children. She's still referring to them as the big one or the black one. Just find it weird since Viserys made a point to spout off all the past dragon names in the first season.

Makes me wonder if they're leaving them out entirely because they didn't like them.

[Dove]

Between Thoros and Anguy the Brotherhood Without Banners are crazy charismatic and likeable so far, so Robin Hood it hurts. They're one of my favorite things about the season. I'm sure things will get more glum once The Boss comes into the picture but in the meantime, they're just so much fun.

[Peptalk]

Loved this episode! Everything about it, basically. I did think Stannis' desperation was suitable considering his position after the failed attack on King's Landing, but just a little over the top.

I also did feel that the punk rendition of The Bear and the Maiden Fair was unsuitable - but that's just because I read the books and truly pity Jaime here. I would have preferred a grim ending that allowed me to feel sorry for him, but the song ruined the moment for me. It probably worked better for the non-reader viewers who at this point probably cheers because he lost his swordhand.

I really look forward to next week's episode.

[I do not sew]

Between Thoros and Anguy the Brotherhood Without Banners are crazy charismatic and likeable so far, so Robin Hood it hurts. They're one of my favorite things about the season. I'm sure things will get more glum once The Boss comes into the picture but in the meantime, they're just so much fun.

Definitely my favorite thing this season. Merging Thoros and Tom/Sevens was a great touch.

Am I the only one who thinks Ramsay saving Theon from being raped was a bit out of character? Seems Ramsay would have let him get raped just a TAD before saving him...

[JMJ]

Definitely my favorite thing this season. Merging Thoros and Tom/Sevens was a great touch.

Am I the only one who thinks Ramsay saving Theon from being raped was a bit out of character? Seems Ramsay would have let him get raped just a TAD before saving him...

Agree the BWB have been good so far. Small nitpick, though: Thoros just sounds like another Brit, ie., Westerosi. I was expecting something different for someone from Myr.

Non-book readers willbe blown away when he revives Beric, as the show has given no hint that Thoros knows magic.

[I do not sew]

Agree the BWB have been good so far. Small nitpick, though: Thoros just sounds like another Brit, ie., Westerosi. I was expecting something different for someone from Myr.

Non-book readers willbe blown away when he revives Beric, as the show has given no hint that Thoros knows magic.

Well he has been living in Westeros for decades...?

/excuse