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[Book Spoilers] EP303 Discussion

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After last week’s disastrous episode I was very pleased with the recovery this week in what was probably one of the better episodes in the series so far.

What I liked:

The Queen of Westeros and Her (Really) Small Counsel: What makes Dany work is that she surrounds herself with good people and then she listens to them. What others call arrogance, Dany possesses incredible insight into people and incredible understanding of why people do what they do (loyalty, greed, fear) and she operates with that in mind. Tied to that is that the whole while she is listening to two opposing view-points via Selmy and Jorah. The fact that she took in all that info from two competing spheres is a testament to how she takes in info and how she uses it against those who she operates against.

On top of that I thought the show did a great job showing how the slavers operate, how they think, and how a slave-society functions- even how slaves would rather be dead than slaves. In just two, three scenes they made the whole world work. They even threw in a Godfather reference.

Brynden Tully: Total Win.

Tyrion "Blames" Pod; Tywin Doesn’t Have To Blame Anyone: Tyrion’s gratefulness towards Pod was not just limited to saving his life, but in being a genuinely good person. So, finally, a character is rewarded for a being a good person. I thought the way it was ended was great and very funny. Great scene.

But more over - the show is at its absolute best when it pays attention to the “behind the scenes” people and how they interface – Tyrion and LF; Tywin and the Small Counsel; etc. Its that deft-hand in showing how this all works that keeps me coming back.

Reek and Ramsey : My money is that the guy who freed Theon is Ramsey Bolton.

Pie in the Sky: Just like the book, I loved how the show finished things with Hot Pie; how the show maintained the decency of a character that said- not in so many words – “I’m done; I am dropping out of this rat race.” And I loved how Arya ended up liking HP and appreciating everything about his short good-bye.

The Maiden and the One-Handed Lion: From start to finish, I thought Jaime and Brienne’s interplay was great; the dialog is tremendous. I thought the very real threat of rape was so well done (and later revisited in the Theon scene). I loved how Jaime wrestles with being decent while also trying to gain advantage- for himself and for his family.

I also loved that – unlike the books – the show makes the North just as mean, horrible and cruel as the West. The wolves lie with demons just like the lions.

And taking Jaime’s hand off like that was incredible. Just as good as the book. Can’t think of abetter compliment.

What I am Not Certain Of:

Not Holding Onto ‘Hold Riverrun’: One of the biggest controversies on these boards is deftly avoided by simply shrinking the impact of “Hold Riverrun” and “Killing the Mountain” (though it again seems more likely than not that Martin’s explanation makes less and less sense under scrutiny, so the show changed it).

But… I am not sure I liked much else, most certainly I did not enjoy Edmure- loved the actor, loved how he spoke to Robb and interfaced with Blackfish, but… why have a character be so incompetent so quickly so much of the time? Now, I a get that that is Edmure in the book so it makes some sense here, but in the book- AT LEAST Cat mentioned how Edmure had a good heart and at least he defeated Tywin! This guy here at RR is a train wreck… and we have only seen him for two scenes.

The Devolution of Stannis: Stannis Baratheon was the guy who stormed the walls of KL; he kills people , he leads men… and … “Whaaa!!!! Why Can’t I have another kid! Why Can’t I BE KING! Please fuck me!!” Now, I get it: he is rudderless and much like the book, Stannis is weakening. But book-Stannis was not a weakling who always wanted the easy way out! In fact, he sometimes made things as hard as they could be! Don’t turn him suddenly into such an untethered, forgettable bad guy! Give the guy some purpose… please! LIstening to Stannis whine on a beach was about as bad as I have seen the show handle one of the most captivating caharcters in the series.

What I did Not Like:

Nothing really sunk to the level of outright dislike. I thought this was the best episode of the season and loved almost every minute of it. I also LOVED the slower pace that gave us time to feel each individual story line.

60 minutes of win.

Edited by Rockroi

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so by end of season jamie returns to KL for gold hand & Oathkeeper, tyrion marries sansa, joeff dies at his wedding tyrion is framed for S escape too by varys/QoT/LF, RW happens, jamie returns to HH with IP training to save B in BEAR PIT saves her gives her oathkeeper & she goes to find lady C but might find lady S. then Jamie returns to KL to free tyrion we get tysha/i killed your son scene then tyrion kills shae/tywin. enough lannister for for 7 episodes i hope so

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Man, if that's the bizarre art the White Walkers like to do in snow, imagine what they'll be like when they come across a genuine crop field!

Also, loved seeing the Hound bop his head on the wagon. :P

Edited by Sharpes

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The Blackfish was badass, that funeral scene was awesome, Dany/Barristan/Jorah were great, I really liked the Rhaegar reference.

What also was cool was seeing Tywin, Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle, Cersei, and Tyrion all in the same room. The little game of chairs was hilarious, Cersei and Tyrion were funny.

Jaime's hand being cut off was a great scene.

Edited by DragonsHungry

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good to see riverunn in the credits and just a qustion when robb was yelling at edmure was he talking about tywin or the mountain cause tywin is all the way in kings landing also it was nice to see the lannister boys martin and the other one, didnt like that talisa isnt acting liek a proper queen and that the freys leaving is still not mentioned and i definitly didnt like that she tells them robb stark turns into a wolf whats the point of that it will only make robb seem like a monster. i loved the ending locke is one hell of an actor and jaimes reaction before the credits....... PRiCELESS

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Could someone please answer this for me. Was the music supposed to start before the hand was cut off because it did for me? Or was it supposed to start during the credits?

wait for a better version from torrents :), the same thing happened to me last week... and this one. I got no Jaime scream :)). I'm not worried, I'll see it tonight, legit on HBO :).

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Yeah, they totally blew Stannis' character. What with him letting it slip he "wanted her." It isn't like they have a relationship/sex (outside of shadow babies) in the books. And it is totally OOC for how we see them interact in private together. Wait. We don't see the later.

Still complete character assassination. /end sarcasm.

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I think they're maybe doing that plotline where Ramsay uses Theon to infiltrate that one fortress so he can open the gates or whatever it is. Just a guess.

You mean Moat Cailin, That is much later in a dance with dragons!

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Great ep!

Is Mel gonna bang Gendry?

Pod is awesome.

Jon is gonna be prevalent from know on I think.

Theon rape scene was... disturbing.

Like how they cleared up the Brienne vs Jaime fight.

Jaime should have been a little more badass before he loses his hand, though. He is a member of the kingsguard and a Lannister, and he was shaking when he had a knife to his eye. Book reader bias always finds flaws.

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Guys Stannis is supposed to be weak and defeated at this point. That's why he is being portrayed as weak and defeated.

This x 100. We don't receive any book scenes of Stannis reacting to the initial aftermath of Blackwater. It's just Davos sitting in his cell for god knows how long. It seems perfectly normal for Stannis to be frustrated, desperate, and lustful just after such a crushing defeat.

One thing that's making me chuckle is how everyone is up in arms about the song at the end and yet mad that Locke/Vargo doesn't have a lisp.

Edited by Warden of the North121

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so by end of season jamie returns to KL for gold hand & Oathkeeper, tyrion marries sansa, joeff dies at his wedding tyrion is framed for S escape too by varys/QoT/LF, RW happens, jamie returns to HH with IP training to save B in BEAR PIT saves her gives her oathkeeper & she goes to find lady C but might find lady S. then Jamie returns to KL to free tyrion we get tysha/i killed your son scene then tyrion kills shae/tywin. enough lannister for for 7 episodes i hope so

All that in 7 episodes ? I was thinking the RW, Stannis at the Wall/Jon Snow Commander, Joffrey dying/Sensa escaping Arya taking the boat, Dany sitting on her 'throne' in Meereen Saying "and now I will rule"

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Yeah, they totally blew Stannis' character. What with him letting it slip he "wanted her." It isn't like they have a relationship/sex (outside of shadow babies) in the books. And it is totally OOC for how we see them interact in private together. Wait. We don't see the later.

Still complete character assassination. /end sarcasm.

Yes he does. In the Mel chapter of ADWD, she notes how her bed has had little use since Stannis has been gone. They weren't just doing the deed to get shadow babies.

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Yeah, they totally blew Stannis' character. What with him letting it slip he "wanted her." It isn't like they have a relationship/sex (outside of shadow babies) in the books. And it is totally OOC for how we see them interact in private together. Wait. We don't see the later.

Still complete character assassination. /end sarcasm.

THe problem with that is that if we saw more of Stannis than we could have a better feel for his overall character and how he is. Unfortunately, all we are seeing of him is this bitchy guy complaining and begging Mel to give him stuff; like he's six and she has the quarters to his favorite Arcade game. If they gave Satnnis more face-time, I would be able to forgive it, but they do NOT have that kind of time to give him so they just make him whiney and petulant. Meh...

LIke I said, I get that he is weakening, but that does not mean he should be a weakling.

We don't receive any book scenes of Stannis reacting to the initial aftermath of Blackwater. It's just Davos sitting in his cell for god knows how long. It seems perfectly normal for Stannis to be frustrated, desperate, and lustful just after such a crushing defeat.

Not entirely true; we see that Stannis is a wreck; that he mourns Renly (not bitching that Renly laghed at him) and that he WILL NOT take retribution out on his lesser supporters- the scene where he is advuised to invade and butcher a small island that went back over to Joff. Stannis, wisely, refuses. We see that he is still in command; still leading; no quit in him. He also listens to Davos (kind of important); that he is working and that he REFUSES to kill Edric Storm to please Mel. This is hardly the same guy who chaes Mel to the beach to beg her for some nooky and to make another shadow baby.

However, do not mistake me- it can't be like the book; I accept that certain changes need tp be made and time is of the essence. I just think there was a more reasonable and effctive way to present Stannis than what we saw.

Edited by Rockroi

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My favorite part had to be when they recaptured Theon...Right before Boy (Ramsay) kills the one guy with the arrow headshot he says "You little bastard...." :drool: Amazing foreshadowing for the Ramsay reveal later :)

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Could someone please answer this for me. Was the music supposed to start before the hand was cut off because it did for me? Or was it supposed to start during the credits?

Just imagining this made me LOL.

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