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Mirri Maz Duur`s words and possible solution to Dany`s fertility problems


Mladen

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i'm aware of what symbolism is, thanks. ^_^

i'm simply in the "it's not a prophecy, mirri was being dramatic" camp.

in a world of magic there are always going to be loopholes, though. so who really knows? dany might be healed and it will have nothing to do with mirri maz duur's words.

Could be she was just being dramatic, but since it's GRRM and ASOIAF we're talking about, where almost everything has some sort of importance, especially things like that, I really doubt it.

Plus, but as we almost certainly know thanks to Maggy the Frog, Maegis probably do have the power of propheting.

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And then please tell me where I have stated it is prophecy. I said it may be interpreted as one, I incline to believe its more foreshadowing than some prophecy.

and please tell me where i stated that you stated it was prophecy. i merely said that i don't think it is. it's going to be alright, friend. ^_^

same deal, though. if it's foreshadowing the connecting events are not going to be so convoluted as to involve stretches and leaps in symbolic connections. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

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Wait wait wait...

The seas go dry might be either something to do with the Greyjoys or indeed the Dothraki sea, but

Mountains that blow in the wind? Since it's generally assumed that the Mountain is Ser Robert Strong....perhaps this has bearing on when Robert Strong is defeated and his body set alight, reducing him to ashes, thus...blow in the wind?

The thing with Ser Robert Strong just gave me a new thought.

Might be Mirri's words are somewhat literal?

If indeed Strong is going to become a pile of ash and blow away in the wind, perhaps the "seas go dry" have a literal meaning as well? Perhaps that means that a Greyjoy will die of dehydration? If that is the case, Vic is the one. He is in Essos, which is an extremely hot and dry continent, unlike wintery Westeros. Plus, Moqorro is very likely to be the cause of his dehydration (fire n' shit).

Or maybe it just refers to the Doth Sea.

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Could be she was just being dramatic, but since it's GRRM and ASOIAF we're talking about, where almost everything has some sort of importance, especially things like that, I really doubt it.

Plus, but as we almost certainly know thanks to Maggy the Frog, Maegis probably do have the power of propheting.

maggy the frog was using blood magic, tasting someone's blood to predict their future, so it's entirely possible that mirri knows this technique. i don't recall her ever taking dany's blood. (drogo's, on the other hand? hmhmmm)

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maggy the frog was using blood magic, tasting someone's blood to predict their future, so it's entirely possible that mirri knows this technique. i don't recall her ever taking dany's blood. (drogo's, on the other hand? hmhmmm)

Well, she DID deliver Rhaego out of Dany's womb. It was certainly pretty messy in that tent. So yes, she had more than enough chance to taste some of Dany's blood.

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and please tell me where i stated that you stated it was prophecy. i merely said that i don't think it is. it's going to be alright, friend. ^_^

same deal, though. if it's foreshadowing the connecting events are not going to be so convoluted as to involve stretches and leaps in symbolic connections. sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.

I had an impression that you related as if the whole theory in OP is prophecy, that`s all. And please, would you be so nice to stop patronizing me. It`s a bit condescending. As for the last line, you are completely right. Sometimes cigar is just that. But we have learnt that nothing in Westeros is so simple as it appears.

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I had an impression that you related as if the whole theory in OP is prophecy, that`s all. And please, would you be so nice to stop patronizing me. It`s a bit condescending. As for the last line, you are completely right. Sometimes cigar is just that. But we have learnt that nothing in Westeros is so simple as it appears.

relax, i'm not trying to patronize you. i'm trying to say that when GRRM foreshadows something, there is a solid foundation of evidence.

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Well, she DID deliver Rhaego out of Dany's womb. It was certainly pretty messy in that tent. So yes, she had more than enough chance to taste some of Dany's blood.

still a bit of a stretch imo as the concept wasn't introduced until much later. we're not going to know for sure until the books come out, i suppose.

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relax, i'm not trying to patronize you. i'm trying to say that when GRRM foreshadows something, there is a solid foundation of evidence.

`not completely crazy` , `it`s going to be all right, friend`, and now `relax`. We can agree about forshadowing, considering that this is also a bit unfamiliar teritory for me for I usually don`t involve into discussions about prophecies. Your tone is what bothers me, not your opinion, giving that I agree with most of it.

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`not completely crazy` , `it`s going to be all right, friend`, and now `relax`. We can agree about forshadowing, considering that this is also a bit unfamiliar teritory for me for I usually don`t involve into discussions about prophecies. Your tone is what bothers me, not your opinion, giving that I agree with most of it.

my mode of speech is rather tongue-in-cheek. all i can say is i bear you no ill will. if that still bothers you, i'm sorry, then you could benefit from being less sensitive, and i mean that as helpfully as i can.

i'm most likely leaving this thread. basic point: grrm's foreshadowing uses more concrete stepping stones than what is in the op or others have suggested. good day.

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I could see in the end of the series, Dany takes a mortal wound, and has internal thoughts as she's dying. One of her last thoughts could be of the prophecy, and she thinks on things she's seen since getting back to Westeros. Robert Strong's corpse hanging from a noose, blowing in the wind for instance. And as her body shuts down and she dies, Dany's last words as she reaches out her hand would be, "My son and stars. You've come back to me."

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"When the sun rises in the west and sets in the east,"

said Mirri Maz Duur. "When the seas go dry and mountains blow in the wind like leaves. When your womb quickens again, and you bear a living child. Then he will return, and not before."

The texts in red are sufficient conditions; the text in green is the necessary condition.

I am taught that you cannot have the sufficient condition without the necessary condition; or no necessary = no sufficient.

So in this case it all depends on how sure we are that Drogo will not return, and also how strictly GRRM follows the rules of logic.

I'm pretty certain Drogo will no return, and IF GRRM strictly follows conditional rules, then I'm also pretty certain Danny is no longer able to bear a living child.

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I don't believe it was a prophesy, nor a curse. It was a grapic answer to "is Drogo ever going to come back?".

MMD believed that Daenerys' health was damaged enough to make her unable to have a living child again. She could be wrong, or not, but it doesn't matter.

Drogo is dead and burned and he is never going to come back, even if the mountains fly like leafs.

(I don't believe that Drogon is Drogo come again. He can't be a lover, a husband, or anything a human can be).

I agree, have never seen any reason to believe MMD was making a serious prophecy/curse.

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What if this answer wasn`t just reffering to Drogo`s health, than also on Daenerys`s? Could these words mean that Dany will also never have children? We are led to believe so. So, can we use this in regard of Daenerys`s possibilities of having baby. Maybe, we have more evidence to believe so.

I think MMD's words will become a case of accidental prophecy. We see a lot of instances of characters attempting to thwart prophecy only for it to become self-fulfilling. We saw it with Mel and Renly when she wanted to have him killed because she saw in the flames that he'd be fighting on the Blackwater, and it turned out that he was fighting, if not 'technically'. We've also seen it with Cersei and her Maggy the Frog stuff.

I don't think MMD meant her words as prophecy. Just a colorful way of saying "Drogo isn't going to become what he was." We'll never know if Drogo could have become what he was before because Dany believed MMD was citing prophecy and so she smothered him and then placed his body on the pyre. Because Dany believed MMD was citing prophecy, she doesn't take precautions and became pregnant with the first man she had sex with. She miscarried in the Dothraki Sea, so we know she isn't unable to conceive. We just don't know if she's able to carry a fetus to term in idea conditions.

And we probably won't know because may not see her have sex with anyone AND become pregnant before she dies or before the end of the series, whichever comes first. Her last chapter doesn't suggest she's going to return to the bed of her husband, Hizdahr. I'm not sure Daario will be so inclined to return to her bed after his time as a hostage. There are plenty of shipping theories when it comes to Dany. People ship her with Victarion, Tyrion, Jon, Jorah, fAegon and a dozen others.

I don't really care to discuss who Dany will end up with (if she ends up romantically involved with anyone), but I think that in terms of prophecy, we will not see her pregnant again and MMD's words will be a case of accidental prophecy. It's an interesting foil to the way other characters perceive and react to prophecy. Rhaegar sought it out, Cersei tried to stop it by keeping it quiet, Mel misinterprets, and Dany doesn't question.

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I think MMD's words will become a case of accidental prophecy. We see a lot of instances of characters attempting to thwart prophecy only for it to become self-fulfilling. We saw it with Mel and Stannis when she wanted to have him killed because she saw in the flames that he'd be fighting on the Blackwater, and it turned out that he was fighting, if not 'technically'. We've also seen it with Cersei and her Maggy the Frog stuff.

I don't think MMD meant her words as prophecy. Just a colorful way of saying "Drogo isn't going to become what he was." We'll never know if Drogo could have become what he was before because Dany believed MMD was citing prophecy and so she smothered him and then placed his body on the pyre. Because Dany believed MMD was citing prophecy, she doesn't take precautions and became pregnant with the first man she had sex with. She miscarried in the Dothraki Sea, so we know she isn't unable to conceive. We just don't know if she's able to carry a fetus to term in idea conditions.

As always, my dear friend, your input is both most appreciated and useful.

As for bolded part, I agree with this. I only meant whether we can interpret them otherwise. I don`t believe that MMD was giving Dany some obscure prophecy, it may be just the words. But, words do matter. And whether we see them as prophecy or nice way to say `never`, perhaps they have deeper meaning. And that was what I have been looking for.

And we probably won't know because may not see her have sex with anyone AND become pregnant before she dies or before the end of the series, whichever comes first. Her last chapter doesn't suggest she's going to return to the bed of her husband, Hizdahr. I'm not sure Daario will be so inclined to return to her bed after his time as a hostage. There are plenty of shipping theories when it comes to Dany. People ship her with Victarion, Tyrion, Jon, Jorah, fAegon and a dozen others.

I don't really care to discuss who Dany will end up with (if she ends up romantically involved with anyone), but I think that in terms of prophecy, we will not see her pregnant again and MMD's words will be a case of accidental prophecy. It's an interesting foil to the way other characters perceive and react to prophecy. Rhaegar sought it out, Cersei tried to stop it by keeping it quiet, Mel misinterprets, and Dany doesn't question.

OK, what we know? In basically two chapters, Quentyn appears, she gets pregnant, and later he dies. She after that have another miscarriage. Coincidence, probably. But the words itself intruiged me when you relate them to Quentyn`s fate. And as for shipping, I have to say that Dany`s arc is the one I am the least interested in. This has just occured to my mind, and I wanted an opinion.

And I love your point of how various people react to prophecies. I always believed that human`s greatest strength is to deal with unknown and face it bravely. And, basically, Dany does that. She isn`t mad like Cersei in her attempts to try to stop it, or have Rhaegar`s enthusiasm in southing it out. She accepts them, and since she can`t do anything, waits for them to unravel. That`s like one of very few characteristics in Dany I personally admire.

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There is of course probable chance that some may have come up with this. If so, then I truly appologizes. But, I would truly like to know whether there is a slight chance for Dany to have children and therefore possibly be crowned as someone`s Queen and Mother.

It's not a prophecy. When someone says, "You'll be able to do this when pig fly." They are not prophesying flying pigs. They are using hyperbolic language to make a point.

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She does not seem to be infertile as such, as someone has convincing shown in another thread that she had a miscarriage as well as another illness at the end of ADWD. The berries she ate may have made her miscarry. However, it still could be that she never bears a living child.

How about this theory, off the top of my head just now, she bears a living child and dies doing it, Drogo comes for her in the sense that she thinks she sees him come to take her to the Dothraki afterlife. The other bits could be to do with Other-related geological events and/or something to do with circumnavigation which happen around the same time.

Its happened. I have joined the wild interpretation of prophecies club.

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I like the theory of Quentyn being the sun that rises in the west and sets in the east.

But when it comes to prophecies, I'm more inclined to people like Quiathe, BloodRaven, Bran, Jojen, the Ghost of High Heart and the HotU.

I think Mirri was being overly dramatic. Heck, Rickon's dreams have more credibility than Mirri.

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I only agree with this theory if Drogo is brought back as a part of Robert Strong. I'm hoping Qyburn will continue to customize and upgrade his creation.

Edit: For the people who think that Mirri is being dramatic, it is important to remember that Rhaego is born horribly decayed: horrible stench, graveworms, corruption, the whole deal. The multitude of death and decay images surrounding Daenerys's womb is another strong piece of evidence that she is infertile. Even Jorah's horrified reaction corroborates Mirri's grim details.

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