Stannis Ruined? (Book Spoilers)

[Mulled Wino]

There's nothing sadistic at all in anything you write here. Sadism is taking pleasure in seeing other people harmed, which Stannis does not. It's one of the most significant character traits with Joffrey though.

As for making him a villain, why would they try to do that by making him more human? I'd say that an emotionally distant and cold person is easier to dislike. I think the change is more about making Melisandre look like she's in control though.

I'm not sure if him groveling to mel and throwing his best friend into the dungeons makes him more human.

Stannis now appears to have Joff-like petulance, weakness (basically crying for mel not to leave him and letting her go without telling him where she's going, much like joff pretending to be brave but really being a little baby), and little in the way of self respect. Those are my parallels to Joff. You brought up sadism.

[Juan_Snow]

Let's be honest here, Stannis is pretty much a force for evil

Using dark magic to kill your own family? Check

Burning people alive? Check

Considering burning your own nephew? Check

Allowing your most loyal servant to rot in a dungeon? Check

Sounds about right. I've always viewed Stannis as more of a villain, and Mel's puppet,

[Tywin's bastard]

I'm not sure if him groveling to mel and throwing his best friend into the dungeons makes him more human.

Stannis now appears to have Joff-like petulance, weakness (basically crying for mel not to leave him and letting her go without telling him where she's going, much like joff pretending to be brave but really being a little baby), and little in the way of self respect. Those are my parallels to Joff. You brought up sadism.

He's beaten and broken and in desperation he's clinging to the only person who seemingly can help him. That's not human? Davos isn't his best friend, Davos is his Hand and servant. Davos also tried to kill Stannis' closest (wo)man so of course he'd have to throw him in the dungeons. How do you expect a king to react to someone trying to kill your best advisor? That's treason, so Stannis was pretty kind. I really hope that wasn't what you call petulance.

You said that he's just a horny version of Joffrey. The biggest part of Joffrey is his uncontrolled sadistic nature so in order for your comment to be true Stannis much show such things. Otherwise I could say Ramsay is just like Jon Snow because he's a northerner and a bastard with emotional problems, if they don't need to share all traits to be versions of the same.

[you snow muffin poncho]

I agree with the OP, this just wasn't the character at all.

I understand that Stannis is a complicated character but it really does feel like they don't "get" him. Stannis in the book has such a bizarre sense of duty and honor, but despite his rigid character is weirdly touchy, and I think - and obviously a lot of people agree with me - steals nearly every scene he's in.

I don't know who this guy is but this scene is so far off the mark; you can pull this shit with Shae and I don't love it but Stannis deserves better

[Mulled Wino]

The duty he owed to Jane Westerling and her family not to steal her virginity and leave her with a bastard child. You might disagree with his decision, but you can't argue that his sense of duty led him to take an action that directly conficted with what he was trying to achive.

His duty conflicted with his other duty, so that makes him special? See, Stannis wouldn't have banged and married Jeyne Westerling in the first place, but you hold it over Stannis' head in your arguments about him. Here is your argument "Robb made a ridiculously stupid error that completely ruined his duty to his kingdom and tore it apart by marrying a girl he slept with BUT, he did his duty to that girl, he does his duty better than Stannis."

Stannis does his duty 24/7. When he sends off Massey, what does he tell Massey to do if he's killed in battle. Is that not doing your duty?

Robb could have won them back. He could have pardoned Rickard for his crimes and worked with him to track down Jaime. But his sense of duty was too strong, and he had to deliver Rickard the punishment due to him by law. When has Stannis ever put the law ahead of his own ambitions?

Well, Stannis got shitted on by Robert and wasn't offered Storm's End but he took it, maybe was a bit bitter but by law he should have been Lord of Storm's End.

Robb would have seemed weaker if he pardoned Karstark. He already looked bad per Cat once.

Sometimes I have a hard time telling if all you Stannis Fanboys are being serious. A lot of posts seem to be based on the assumption that; "OMG!!! Stannis is such an epic BAMF, action hero, internet meme LOLZ" I figure thats probably being unfair, and that you all have genuine reasons to like him, even if I can't really understand them. I'd appreciate it if you could offer me the same benefit of the doubt.

If your critiques were valid, perhaps you wouldn't have that problem.

[Penguin king]

Well, from my point of view, I relate to Stannis's straight faced humor.

He's got some good lines I'll admit. I do like a dry wit, so he gets points there.

I also enjoy, as far as I read from him, his anti-sexuality. It was obviously part of him, being a Baratheon, defined by his sexuality, or lack thereof.

I kinda saw him that way too originally, but the amount of time he and Melisandre spend together behind closed doors kinda indicates they're not just praying. Either Mel has him bewitched, which i'm not discounting, or he's got a bigger sex drive than he's letting on. We never really see him and Mel alone in the books, so maybe he lets his mask slip a little when it's just the two of them.

[StarkDragon]

I kinda saw him that way too originally, but the amount of time he and Melisandre spend together behind closed doors kinda indicates they're not just praying. Either Mel has him bewitched, which i'm not discounting, or he's got a bigger sex drive than he's letting on. We never really see him and Mel alone in the books, so maybe he lets his mask slip a little when it's just the two of them.

Oh, I thought he had sex with Mel to make the shadow babies. I actually assumed it to be a pretty queer setting, like Renly's "he went to bed like he went to the battlefield" (or however he says it) comment queer.

Which, honestly, made him all the funnier to me.

[Runaway Penguin]

As Syrio would say, "look with your eyes". He talks a lot about law and duty, but when does he ever put duty above his own desires? Even going to the wall works in his best interests. Robb's sense of duty leads to him losing his alliance with the Freys and alienating the Karstarks. When does Stannis's duty ever hold him back?

The duty he owed to Jane Westerling and her family not to steal her virginity and leave her with a bastard child. You might disagree with his decision, but you can't argue that his sense of duty led him to take an action that directly conficted with what he was trying to achive.

Well, he didn't leave her with a child in the first place. His duty, as a King, should have been for his kingdom first and foremost - see Halfhand's lecture on honor vs. duty. Instead, he chose to " do the honorable thing" - which meant utterly pissing off his most important ally in the south (communication lines are even more important than Riverrun).

Stannis did not desire for the Iron Throne. He felt slighted by getting Dragonstone instead of Storm's End from Robert, but he did his duty. And he did his duty when it was revealed that Robert's "sons" isn't his. Then, by law, Stannis is the rightful king. You want to say he should have ignored the blatant violation and deception performed by Lannisters?

Even if you think Stannis is evil, you have to admit he's Lawful Evil. And, so far in the show, he's out of character, book-wise.

Robb could have won them back. He could have pardoned Rickard for his crimes and worked with him to track down Jaime. But his sense of duty was too strong, and he had to deliver Rickard the punishment due to him by law. When has Stannis ever put the law ahead of his own ambitions?

You are putting cart before the horse here. When did Stannis put his ambition before the law? The only time he was not lawful (and instead dtiful) was when he joined with his brother during the rebellion - and that again was not done out of ambition. Renly is putting ambition above the law and duty, not Stannis.

[Sxxman]

I don't think anyone who was watching that scene sympathized with Stannis, those scenes are to show the viewers (since we don't get a Stannis POV in the books) how devastating the loss of Blackwater is on him. It gives him more layers as a character. I really doubt that this "broken" version of Stannis will last the whole series.

[Tywin's bastard]

I kinda saw him that way too originally, but the amount of time he and Melisandre spend together behind closed doors kinda indicates they're not just praying. Either Mel has him bewitched, which i'm not discounting, or he's got a bigger sex drive than he's letting on. We never really see him and Mel alone in the books, so maybe he lets his mask slip a little when it's just the two of them.

Yes, Melisandre even describes her bed as lonely after Stannis leaves and you'd have to sleep with each other pretty often to get that feeling. There's no proof either way but I doubt that she has Stannis under any sort of spell.

[Mulled Wino]

He's beaten and broken and in desperation he's clinging to the only person who seemingly can help him. That's not human? Davos isn't his best friend, Davos is his Hand and servant. Davos also tried to kill Stannis' closest (wo)man so of course he'd have to throw him in the dungeons. How do you expect a king to react to someone trying to kill your best advisor? That's treason, so Stannis was pretty kind. I really hope that wasn't what you call petulance.

You said that he's just a horny version of Joffrey. The biggest part of Joffrey is his uncontrolled sadistic nature so in order for your comment to be true Stannis much show such things. Otherwise I could say Ramsay is just like Jon Snow because he's a northerner and a bastard with emotional problems, if they don't need to share all traits to be versions of the same.

Stannis has a wife, he has a child, he has thousands of men around him. He's not a sniveling child. We're just going to have to disagree on if this makes him more human. He's a brooder, that's also a human trait, a Stannis trait. I'm not the type of person who automatically likes someone because they show emotions.

Stannis and Mel knew what Davos was going to do in the book and the show and they knew why, hence why they let him cool off.

[WardenOfTheNerds]

There should be lock-timer on Stannis threads, that closes them after 24 hours since they evolve into pointless arguments anyway. On topic: I agree with OP, when Stannis said "i want you" i almost wept, how could they massacre that character so bad? First he personally imprisons Davos, now he only wants to fuck Mel, srsly give him a break.

[StannisandDaeny]

Let's be honest here, Stannis is pretty much a force for evil

Wrong. Stannis is a guy who served the realm faithfully all his life, then suddenly finds himself in a position where he's King and everyone's denying his claim, so naturally he has the right to fight to enforce that claim, more than anyone else in the series.

Using dark magic to kill your own family? Check

Renly attacked Stannis, not the other way around. The cause of the conflict was Renly declaring himself king, and Renly was very much prepared to kill Stannis (and everyone else), just not with dark magic, and the means which you use don't matter. The series offers no conclusion on whether Stannis truly knew what had happened, either.

Burning people alive? Check

Not any worse than any other method of execution used by other people throughout the series. This is Westeros, not Fairy Dayland.

Considering burning your own nephew? Check

Which he did not do, never liked the idea, and finally agreed with to Davos that it was a bad plan. Do you hold yourself accountable for everything you ever considered doing, too?

Allowing your most loyal servant to rot in a dungeon? Check

... who tried to kill one of his other most loyal servants. He's Stannis, he doesn't do favoritism. Locking Davos up was a means of protecting him from himself. Blaming what happened on the Blackwater on Melisandre was ridiculous, he clearly was out of his mind at the time, which is no wonder considering what he'd gone through. Davos was far from rotting, in fact he was handled quite nicely in his cell.

If Dan and David really dislike Stannis, fine, if they are making their portrayal of him more negative simply because of their own petty opinions, then fuck 'em.

[Penguin king]

His duty conflicted with his other duty, so that makes him special? See, Stannis wouldn't have banged and married Jeyne Westerling in the first place, but you hold it over Stannis' head in your arguments about him. Here is your argument "Robb made a ridiculously stupid error that completely ruined his duty to his kingdom and tore it apart by marrying a girl he slept with BUT, he did his duty to that girl, he does his duty better than Stannis."

That's not what I was saying at all. The point I was making, is that Robb found himself in a moral dilemma which he solved at his own expense. You never see that from stannis. Given the choice he always takes the option that works in his favour. He's willing to sacrifice the lives of his brother his nephew, and good men like Cortnay Penrose to get what he wants. He expects people to give up on all their own wishes, and to kneel down and serve him out of duty, but what does he ever sacrifice to up hold his own duty?

Well, Stannis got shitted on by Robert and wasn't offered Storm's End but he took it, maybe was a bit bitter but by law he should have been Lord of Storm's End.

What did he sacrifice there? If he'd argued too hard Robert would have given him nothing. It's not like he had a choice in handing it over to Renly.

Robb would have seemed weaker if he pardoned Karstark. He already looked bad per Cat once.

Are you saying Robb only did it not to look weak, and that all the lessons Ned gave him about duty and honor never even factored into it?

[Runaway Penguin]

And even in the Davos arc, Mel played a crucial part and showed that while she is a fanatic, she isn't blind - approving of Davos being Hand despite his repeated refusals to go for tthe Red Lot...

Then again, Renly also changed from "young Robert", skilled at arms and quite careless and taking throne to get power... Into a whiner who goes for the crown because Loras told him...

[StannisandDaeny]

The duty he owed to Jane Westerling and her family not to steal her virginity and leave her with a bastard child. You might disagree with his decision, but you can't argue that his sense of duty led him to take an action that directly conficted with what he was trying to achive.

So being a dumb fuck is a positive quality now? If Robb really was all about duty, perhaps he shouldn't have fucked Jeyne in the first place?

Robb could have won them back. He could have pardoned Rickard for his crimes and worked with him to track down Jaime. But his sense of duty was too strong, and he had to deliver Rickard the punishment due to him by law. When has Stannis ever put the law ahead of his own ambitions?

When he declared himself King. He could have saved himself a lot of trouble by passing up on his claim and he had a snowball's chance in hell of winning the IT (in fact at the start of the war it was pretty much a death sentence), yet he followed the law and declared himself King. How many times do I have to remind you pursuing your claim is a duty not only to yourself, but also to your servants, family and bannermen?

Sometimes I have a hard time telling if all you Stannis Fanboys are being serious. A lot of posts seem to be based on the assumption that; "OMG!!! Stannis is such an epic BAMF, action hero, internet meme LOLZ" I figure thats probably being unfair, and that you all have genuine reasons to like him, even if I can't really understand them. I'd appreciate it if you could offer me the same benefit of the doubt.

When you write shit like the part in bold, then no.

[Tywin's bastard]

Stannis has a wife, he has a child, he has thousands of men around him. He's not a sniveling child. We're just going to have to disagree on if this makes him more human. He's a brooder, that's also a human trait, a Stannis trait. I'm not the type of person who automatically likes someone because they show emotions.

Stannis and Mel knew what Davos was going to do in the book and the show and they knew why, hence why they let him cool off.

No, you're apparently the type of person that thinks someone is a villain when they show more emotions. This part of the discussion is solely about you saying that they are trying to make him a villain, and me questioning that argument. It's you that are driving an hypothesis, not me.

Your point about what they knew in the book is irrelevant since Stannis obviously didn't in the show. His reaction can't be judged on the premise of the book in this case. Petulance is not defined as 'not knowing what someone will do'.

[Joyful Union]

Not any worse than any other method of execution used by other people throughout the series. This is Westeros, not Fairy Dayland.

What are you talking about? Being burned alive is one of the most horrible way to die there is, much more painful than hanging or beheading, which is what the rest of Westeros uses.

[ServantOnIce]

Why was Mel Smirking through the entire scene. It looked like the whole scene was thrown together last minute and they just glued together some bad takes.

Cat first and now Stannis. At this rate they are going to have Joffery tell Sansa how sorry he is for everything he's done to her.

LOL!

I didn't like the scene either. I kept hearing Adam Levine singing, "Payphone" or "Sad" in the background. Thinking about it again this morning I keep hearing, "Please don't leave me" by Pink.

Stannis seems like not only has he bent, but he's twised, broken, begging Mel for love, begging Mel for her affection? My goodness they've ruined STANNIS!!!

I had mentioned this before, and now it is confirmed, they have converted Stannis into being in love with Melisandre. My goodness . .

If Stannis dies in TWOW will his last word be, "Melisandre . ."

[StannisandDaeny]

That's not what I was saying at all. The point I was making, is that Robb found himself in a moral dilemma which he solved at his own expense. You never see that from stannis. Given the choice he always takes the option that works in his favour. He's willing to sacrifice the lives of his brother his nephew, and good men like Cortnay Penrose to get what he wants. He expects people to give up on all their own wishes, and to kneel down and serve him out of duty, but what does he ever sacrifice to up hold his own duty?

There is so much wrong with this part. Stannis almost died holding Storm's End. Where's his sense of duty right? Way to forget that tiny little detail.

Cortnay is a good man now? He was a rebel and a traitor. He's also a cardboard character which no one including you cares about, you're just bringing him up to have another attempt at a stab at Stannis. Robb and everyone else did not risk any good men's lives? What did Renly do, starting a pointless war against his brother? Risk lives.

Renly put himself in the line of fire when he declared himself King. There is no reason whatsoever a younger brother should be obeyed when he declares himself King and threatens to kill his older brother. Not one.

Seriously dude, your arguments are so poor it's like you're simply trolling people who like Stannis out of spite because he's still alive and Renly and Robb, well, are not.

What did he sacrifice there? If he'd argued too hard Robert would have given him nothing. It's not like he had a choice in handing it over to Renly.

And this is a reason to have less sympathy for Stannis now somehow?

Are you saying Robb only did it not to look weak, and that all the lessons Ned gave him about duty and honor never even factored into it?

It was a big factor because he already looked weak for losing Winterfel and that was a large problem he had.