[BOOK SPOILERS] Perverse sense of justice

[Mladen]

The Kingslayer and the Turncloak. We finally had the chance to see them suffer for all their crimes. For when you toss a boy off the window, have sex with your sister, kill a lot of people to hide it, or when you betray your friends whom are you raised with, you are bound to be punished soon enough.

In my humble opinion, this was good episode, but nothing more. And it was good more because I am fan of the show, than it was good on its own. Theon`s hunting has been cut into very small pieces, so perhaps we could enjoy more in this `hunt`, or perhaps the writers had come to new ruthless way to punish Theon. Either way, I want to cut the chase, and see something being done to him. As for Jaime, as much as I like `without your father, you are nothing` perspective, I have to say that this Locke looks rather more cunning than cruel. And that`s why I have problems with this scene.

In this episode, we have seen `the hunting game` Boy plays with Theon, and we have Locke cutting Jaime`s hands. Do we like these changes? Are we glad to see that `hunting game` will be the most pervertic and mallicious thing we have ever seen? And do we like the way Jaime`s hand was cut off? And how does it work comparing to what we know from the books?

[Hellfell]

What's happening to them cannot be called justice. I love people's reactions to these storylines being "yay, those guys finally get what they deserve. Justice is served" I want to look at their faces when they realize how cruel they really were when they laughed and clapped at those scenes.

"you don't know villainy", Alliser Torne would say if he was a critic talking to average viewer.

[StarkDragon]

Mm agreed. Another thing I like about GRRM is the lack of 'evil' characters. I always found the idea of a 'shits and giggles evil' rather archaic.

That GRRM takes away those lens and shows us the alternative view has been something I've long found endearing.

[Runaway Penguin]

It's kinda "karmic justice", but done in such a way it paves way for further injustices. Generally though, Jaime is probably the closest "wheel of justice" thing. Same as Bran, his "primary skill" is left in ruins (Jaime: generally moving around doing mischief, Jaime being a very very good swordfighter); As a result, they have to turn to alternatives (bran: skinchanging, getting more power than he dreamed of and being able to "fly"; Jaime: beginning to use the grey stuff between his ears and becoming a competent commander).

[Maester Ruin]

I have to stress that Theon was never a turncloak, in westeros law, the son of a lord most always obey his father (not his "prisoners"). Regardless of how much he liked Robb and how close they were, he did the "rightful" thing by obeying his fathers wishes. Not even Ned Stark could disagree with that

[Mladen]

But, it`s all about perception, isn`t it? After having so many books with clear line between right and wrong, good and evil, it`s refreshing to have one blurry line between two confronted sides. Justice should be impartial, right? But, from everything we have seen, and some of us even lived, we can`t say it works that way. Calling Theon`s torments a justice is as wrong as doing it. Jaime`s hand, being cut off, interestingly brought us so much we didn`t know. These punishments made us realize how cruel world is, and that sometimes price we pay for our crimes is too high. But, after all, if we can`t suffer for our crimes, where does it lead us. Jaime`s punishment had led him to some sort of redemption, and Theon, if ever, will find forgiveness from those he wronged the most.

So, can we say that they have paid for their crimes? Or is this another example that random viciousness is called justice? For after all, neither Locke or Ramsay were thinking of Bran, and crimes their captives had commited.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

he did the "rightful" thing by obeying his fathers wishes. Not even Ned Stark could disagree with that

Actually, not following his father's wishes is what got him into bother. He was not supposed take Winterfell.

What's happening to them cannot be called justice.

Jaime lost the hand that pushed Bran out the window.

Theon, well, the 'interrogation' he has had so far could be argued to be 'par for the course'. What comes next is not of course.

[Maester Ruin]

I actually think Jamies "punishment" made him a better man in the end, its almost as if it was the will of the "gods" to have hand removed so that he could look back on his prior life and decide that he wanted to make a change and become "Goldhand the good". Theon on the other hand, never really did anything wrong, he did what a son of a lord is expected to do (obey his father) and his punishment is not only unjustified, but carried out by someone with no authority to do so (Ramsay)

[Mulled Wino]

I actually think Jamies "punishment" made him a better man in the end, its almost as if it was the will of the "gods" to have hand removed so that he could look back on his prior life and decide that he wanted to make a change and become "Goldhand the good". Theon on the other hand, never really did anything wrong, he did what a son of a lord is expected to do (obey his father) and his punishment is not only unjustified, but carried out by someone with no authority to do so (Ramsay)

How did he obey his father? His father told him to harry te Stony Shore

He did give Robb his word btw before he went to Pyke so its tough to justify "he never did anything wrong". He pledged fealty to the king then betrayed him.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

I actually think Jamies "punishment" made him a better man in the end, its almost as if it was the will of the "gods" to have hand removed so that he could look back on his prior life and decide that he wanted to make a change and become "Goldhand the good". Theon on the other hand, never really did anything wrong, he did what a son of a lord is expected to do (obey his father) and his punishment is not only unjustified, but carried out by someone with no authority to do so (Ramsay)

Re: Jaime. Exactly - there is also the fact that he is now maimed for life just as Bran is maimed for life. That fact in itself could be something of a trigger for his own re-evaluation.

Re: Theon. Disagree completely. "Never really did anything wrong".... I grant you that his loyalty to his family should be greater than his loyalty to the Starks, but Northmen are perfectly justified in seeing him as a treacherous individual. And he was disobeying his father anyway. In the normal historical course of events, a bit of fingernail 'tickling' and foot screwing is the absolute least someone in medieval times could expect. Torture and maiming of even kings and emperors is historically accurate for the time. The initial stuff Theon has gone through is not beyond the pale. Everything that happens after is what is unjustified.

[Mulled Wino]

Theon didnt turn his cloak on the North? Do people really believe that he didn't or is this just Theon love?

I dont see how, from the perspective of the people who actually call him Theon Turncloak, he didnt do anything wrong. Just because you like his character doesnt mean he didnt rightly give the North justification for hating him and owing him death at best.

[Mulled Wino]

Dbl post

[Dove]

I don't know, I can see both sides. I've grown pretty fond of Theon as a character so I might not be entirely impartial but I think it's a little ridiculous to expect complete and utter loyalty from someone who's just a glorified hostage - with the deaths of "Bran and Rickon" and the razing of Winterfell attributed to him, though, I can see why the lords would call for his execution even if we know it didn't go down how they think it did.

[episodenone]

I believe the proper word would be "perverse"

[Mulled Wino]

I don't know, I can see both sides. I've grown pretty fond of Theon as a character so I might not be entirely impartial but I think it's a little ridiculous to expect complete and utter loyalty from someone who's just a glorified hostage - with the deaths of "Bran and Rickon" and the razing of Winterfell attributed to him, though, I can see why the lords would call for his execution even if we know it didn't go down how they think it did.

Lmao. So they should have thought he had his fingers crossed when he pledged his sword to Robb and gave him his word when Robb sent him to Pyke. I'd say the bold clearly applies.

[wolverine]

The Kingslayer and the Turncloak. We finally had the chance to see them suffer for all their crimes. For when you toss a boy off the window, have sex with your sister, kill a lot of people to hide it, or when you betray your friends whom are you raised with, you are bound to be punished soon enough.

In my humble opinion, this was good episode, but nothing more. And it was good more because I am fan of the show, than it was good on its own. Theon`s hunting has been cut into very small pieces, so perhaps we could enjoy more in this `hunt`, or perhaps the writers had come to new ruthless way to punish Theon. Either way, I want to cut the chase, and see something being done to him. As for Jaime, as much as I like `without your father, you are nothing` perspective, I have to say that this Locke looks rather more cunning than cruel. And that`s why I have problems with this scene.

In this episode, we have seen `the hunting game` Boy plays with Theon, and we have Locke cutting Jaime`s hands. Do we like these changes? Are we glad to see that `hunting game` will be the most pervertic and mallicious thing we have ever seen? And do we like the way Jaime`s hand was cut off? And how does it work comparing to what we know from the books?

Someone in the other thread had what I thought was a good explanation for this. At this point, if Locke is loyal to the north, which he appears to be, he probably assumes that he is bringing Jaime back to the North to be beheaded. It doesn't matter if he has 1 or 2 hands when they cut off his head. This sets up a good scene for Roose to be like "why the fuck did you cut off his hand you moron!" since he is obviously not loyal to the North.

What's happening to them cannot be called justice. I love people's reactions to these storylines being "yay, those guys finally get what they deserve. Justice is served" I want to look at their faces when they realize how cruel they really were when they laughed and clapped at those scenes.

"you don't know villainy", Alliser Torne would say if he was a critic talking to average viewer.

I agree. It is pretty fucked up to be rejoicing and clapping at torture scenes. Maybe says something about people's desensification to violence. The hand cutting off I understand as it is quick and seemingly justified punishment for Jaime's crimes, but not the torture scenes.

[StarkDragon]

I agree. It is pretty fucked up to be rejoicing and clapping at torture scenes. Maybe says something about people's desensification to violence. The hand cutting off I understand as it is quick and seemingly justified punishment for Jaime's crimes, but not the torture scenes.

I agree completely.

[DragonsHungry]

It was poetic justice for Jaime for his actions with Bran. He has killed northmen in his escape attempts, and now kharma rebounded on him.

If you can dish it out, be prepared to take it. Jaime will grow now.

Theon is simply a pathetic loser, which makes his character great. Theon wasn't even following Balon's orders, he wasn't supposed to sack Winterfell, but go to the Stony Shore.

It is completely unfair what is being done to him, but he put himself in that position in the first place.

[Mladen]

I believe the proper word would be "perverse"

Thank you. English isn`t my first language and sometimes I make these mistakes. I`ll correct immediately.

[Mladen]

I have to stress that Theon was never a turncloak, in westeros law, the son of a lord most always obey his father (not his "prisoners"). Regardless of how much he liked Robb and how close they were, he did the "rightful" thing by obeying his fathers wishes. Not even Ned Stark could disagree with that

Turnocloak is most likely derived from turncoat, which is another word for traitor, and Theon did betrayed Starks. As everyone pointed out, his father`s wish was never to take Winterfell. Theon did it on his own. His father hadn`t told him to burn the children, Theon did it. He did maybe the right thing to obbey his side and shift his allegeance, but that still makes him turncloak. And he was fed with Starks, raised with them, Robb named him practicly his closest advisors. Theon betrayed that trust, and that`s why he is turncloak.

Someone in the other thread had what I thought was a good explanation for this. At this point, if Locke is loyal to the north, which he appears to be, he probably assumes that he is bringing Jaime back to the North to be beheaded. It doesn't matter if he has 1 or 2 hands when they cut off his head. This sets up a good scene for Roose to be like "why the fuck did you cut off his hand you moron!" since he is obviously not loyal to the North.

Yes, in the show it works that way, but as for books, Vargo was working under Bolton, and at the moment of cuttig this hand, Bolton was already negotiating with Lannisters. Your argument stands, but I still have problem in digesting that scene properly :). I expected so uch more of it.