[BOOK SPOILERS] Perverse sense of justice

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

It really appeared like Robb was the only noble in westeros who did not know that Balon Greyjoy hated the starks more than any other family in westeros. His father had to take Theon hostage to ensure that Balon would remain peaceful. But Robb thinks Balon would make an excellent ally based soley on the fact that they are both members of the "Rebels and former Rebels against the Iron Throne Club" and that Theon thinks that he will probably be able to convince a father he hardly knows or remembers to join Robbs side - Both of them totally ignoring the past; the fact that they are trying to recruit a man who lost two sons, theons elder brothers, at stark hands, and that Balon was greatly humiliated by being forced to send his only living son away to be kept as a hostage by the starks.

That fact should be enough really, if you had to take this guys son away and give him to the starks as a hostage to ensure that Balon would remain peaceful thowards the north, he should not be considered a suitable ally. and, for the love of god, you should not give him back your hostage when your homelands are more vulnerable than ever to an attack by the Iron Islands.

The entire plan to send Theon to Pyke to negociate an alliance with his father on behalf of house Stark is about as dumb as sending Gregor Clegane to Dorne in order to try to forge an alliance between House Martell and House Lannister to fight house Stark, and its one of the things that qualifies Robb as the most stupid principal lord of westeros, with Mace Tyrell who is lightyears ahead of Robb in wits, politics and diplomancy as a solid number two.

Robb thought the worst case scenario was that Balon would hold Theon at Pyke and not join his side. What actually happens is much, much worse. So it was a bad idea but the way it turned out was completely unpredictable to him because Theon was practically his brother.

That being said Robb's stupidity is an entirely different topic and I'm not sure what role it playing in justice for Theon.

[Maester Ruin]

So Theon isn't a turncloak because he only swore fealty in a time of war and then betrayed that vow which makes him a...what??

Family still comes first. Because family always comes first in Westeros. Thats how feudal laws work. Once Theon arrived in Pyke, his fealty to robb stark means nothing if his father does not approve of it, because he is the the Lord of the Iron Islands and it is theons duty to obey his father and serve his house. That is the way it has been for thousands of years in westeros.

If Robb stark actually did some research, like listening to his dear mother or asking one of his political advisers who where of his fathers generation about Balon Greyjoy and the odds of him joining them in an alliance before he sent Theon back into his fathers mercy, this whole thing would never have happened.

[lostinwesteros]

Wow.

I did mean that literally. I have always had that image reversed in my mind! I didn't believe what you said until I checked just then. Thank you for the correction!

Gosh, you're welcome. I wasn't quite sure, and didn't really mean it as a correction, more like a reality check. :lol:

[FattyPeon]

Family still comes first. Because family always comes first in Westeros. Thats how feudal laws work. Once Theon arrived in Pyke, his fealty to robb stark means nothing if his father does not approve of it, because he is the the Lord of the Iron Islands and it is theons duty to obey his father and serve his house. That is the way it has been for thousands of years in westeros.

If Robb stark actually did some research, like listening to his dear mother or asking one of his political advisers who where of his fathers generation about Balon Greyjoy and the odds of him joining them in an alliance before he sent Theon back into his fathers mercy, this whole thing would never have happened.

Surely your duty to the king you've declared for overrides any duty to your dad.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Family still comes first. Because family always comes first in Westeros. Thats how feudal laws work. Once Theon arrived in Pyke, his fealty to robb stark means nothing if his father does not approve of it, because he is the the Lord of the Iron Islands and it is theons duty to obey his father and serve his house. That is the way it has been for thousands of years in westeros.

If Robb stark actually did some research, like listening to his dear mother or asking one of his political advisers who where of his fathers generation about Balon Greyjoy and the odds of him joining them in an alliance before he sent Theon back into his fathers mercy, this whole thing would never have happened.

It doesn't matter because he turned his cloak on his King. If you're father tells you to rebel against the throne then you're still a traitor to the throne. How is this not absolutely clear.

[Eogh]

It really appeared like Robb was the only noble in westeros who did not know that Balon Greyjoy hated the starks more than any other family in westeros. His father had to take Theon hostage to ensure that Balon would remain peaceful. But Robb thinks Balon would make an excellent ally based soley on the fact that they are both members of the "Rebels and former Rebels against the Iron Throne Club" and that Theon thinks that he will probably be able to convince a father he hardly knows or remembers to join Robbs side - Both of them totally ignoring the past; the fact that they are trying to recruit a man who lost two sons, theons elder brothers, at stark hands, and that Balon was greatly humiliated by being forced to send his only living son away to be kept as a hostage by the starks.

That fact should be enough really, if you had to take this guys son away and give him to the starks as a hostage to ensure that Balon would remain peaceful thowards the north, he should not be considered a suitable ally. and, for the love of god, you should not give him back your hostage when your homelands are more vulnerable than ever to an attack by the Iron Islands.

The entire plan to send Theon to Pyke to negociate an alliance with his father on behalf of house Stark is about as dumb as sending Gregor Clegane to Dorne in order to try to forge an alliance between House Martell and House Lannister to fight house Stark, and its one of the things that qualifies Robb as the most stupid principal lord of westeros, with Mace Tyrell who is lightyears ahead of Robb in wits, politics and diplomancy as a solid number two.

I totally agree that sending Theon to Pyke was hands down one of the worst strategic blunders of the series, but I think you're misrepresenting some of Theon's motives to help your point. You talk about his decision to betray Robb's trust as difficult, when in actuality it was incredibly easy for Theon (this was changed in the show to make him more sympathetic), and you make a big deal about Theon's duty to serve his family when in fact he was motivated more by the desire for personal glory than any compulsion to aid his family. He saw an opportunity to wield significant power of his own, and jumped for it.

[Maester Ruin]

Robb thought the worst case scenario was that Balon would hold Theon at Pyke and not join his side. What actually happens is much, much worse. So it was a bad idea but the way it turned out was completely unpredictable to him because Theon was practically his brother.

Wich once again proves that he is stupid or at least ignorant. i cant see how Robb Stark doesnt know about Balons hatred for his house when "Outsiders" like Tyrion Lannister does it. Did Ned never tell him about the Greyjoy rebellion? Did Robb never ask? Did Maester Luwin forget to educate him on what happened to two of balons sons during the rebellion? or does robb just simply think this is all water under the brige? It also proves that he doesnt understand the concept of a hostage, wich was used frequently during this time period to prevent an old enemy from going to war against you again. Sending back this Hostage nullifies this advantageos defence. Did Robb never ask anyone why Balons son was raised among them? he seems to have little to none education on war, history, politics or relations between the ruling families.

Im not going to defend Theons actions at winterfell, by that point he was pretty much desperatly trying to prove himself by killing people he had known all his life to impress ironborn warriors that he had known for a few months and none of them had shown him anything but contempt and disrespect when they first met, despite Theon being the only son of their paramount lord.

Taking winterfell was completley optional and some of his actions there were impossible to defend by todays ethics and even if some of them were actually not his idea, he ordered them to be carried out. but taking winterfell was of course highly attractive in theons eyes since he thought it would prove to his father both his strategical effieciency and finally prove his loyalty to his familiy by defiling the Stark seat.

Apart from that, theon had no choice but to take part of his fathers war campaign, and the whole thing could be avoided if Robb spent a little more time thinking his decisions through and consulting advisors before going with risky impulsive ideas.

[Eogh]

Wich once again proves that he is stupid or at least ignorant. i cant see how Robb Stark doesnt know about Balons hatred for his house when "Outsiders" like Tyrion Lannister does it. Did Ned never tell him about the Greyjoy rebellion? Did Robb never ask? Did Maester Luwin forget to educate him on what happened to two of balons sons during the rebellion? or does robb just simply think this is all water under the brige? It also proves that he doesnt understand the concept of a hostage, wich was used frequently during this time period to prevent an old enemy from going to war against you again. Sending back this Hostage nullifies this advantageos defence. Did Robb never ask anyone why Balons son was raised among them? he seems to have little to none education on war, history, politics or relations between the ruling families.

This gave me a chuckle. Never actually thought about the full extent of Robb's foolishness in this department. Truly a fuck up of incredible magnitude.

[Mulled Wino]

Pledging individual fealty to someones cause in a war is not the same thing as binding yourself to lifelong servitude (unless theon was lord of pyke at the time, then he could have sworn an oath of fealty that would have lasted for the rest of his life and passed on to his children and their children, but Theon had no authority to do so). howerver, it IS expected of a member of a noble family to spend his entire life in service of his house and family, the only exceptions are those who become maesters or crows, wich is often decided by the Lord father anyhow.

Lets pretend Theon told Balon to fuck off and went back to Robb. (wich is even bigger treason by the laws and morals of Westeros, regardless how much you love how stark, its a fact) Practicly, that would have meant that Theon forsake all inheiratance to the seastone chair and his family in favour of the starks, and since Balon would then no longer value his life (he might hypotheticaly have inprisoned theon himself if he managed to catch him before he left to rejoin Robb). Theon would lose his "hostage" value and Asha and Balon would have gone through with their invasion of the north anyways,

with theon back at robbs side but stripped of all titles and inheritence and basicly serveing as a glorified guard/warrior in the stark army.

The wisest thing Robb and Theon could have done if they wanted to pledge fealty and create an alliance between their houses was to be patient, find ships somewhere else or choose another strategy, and wait until Balon was Dead. Then Theon could have claimed the seastone chair and officialy signed an official alliance between the two families "until the end of time".

The Northmen are the ones calling him turncloak, he took Robb as his king, not just a wartime ally. Therefore he is a traitor to the king he swore fealty too. So calling him turncloak is completely jusified to the North.

Seriously, you really think he isn't a turncloak to the Northmen?

Out of the tens of paragraphs you've typed, not one is even a semi decent argument that he isnt a turncloak. He pledged an oath to the king in the North, then broke it badly.

[Mulled Wino]

Wich once again proves that he is stupid or at least ignorant. i cant see how Robb Stark doesnt know about Balons hatred for his house when "Outsiders" like Tyrion Lannister does it. Did Ned never tell him about the Greyjoy rebellion? Did Robb never ask? Did Maester Luwin forget to educate him on what happened to two of balons sons during the rebellion? or does robb just simply think this is all water under the brige? It also proves that he doesnt understand the concept of a hostage, wich was used frequently during this time period to prevent an old enemy from going to war against you again. Sending back this Hostage nullifies this advantageos defence. Did Robb never ask anyone why Balons son was raised among them? he seems to have little to none education on war, history, politics or relations between the ruling families.

Im not going to defend Theons actions at winterfell, by that point he was pretty much desperatly trying to prove himself by killing people he had known all his life to impress ironborn warriors that he had known for a few months and none of them had shown him anything but contempt and disrespect when they first met, despite Theon being the only son of their paramount lord.

Taking winterfell was completley optional and some of his actions there were impossible to defend by todays ethics and even if some of them were actually not his idea, he ordered them to be carried out. but taking winterfell was of course highly attractive in theons eyes since he thought it would prove to his father both his strategical effieciency and finally prove his loyalty to his familiy by defiling the Stark seat.

Apart from that, theon had no choice but to take part of his fathers war campaign, and the whole thing could be avoided if Robb spent a little more time thinking his decisions through and consulting advisors before going with risky impulsive ideas.

No one's saying Robb's not an idiot sometimes. That has no bearing on anything to do with whether or not theon turned his back on the king he swore himself to serve.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Wich once again proves that he is stupid or at least ignorant. i cant see how Robb Stark doesnt know about Balons hatred for his house when "Outsiders" like Tyrion Lannister does it. Did Ned never tell him about the Greyjoy rebellion? Did Robb never ask? Did Maester Luwin forget to educate him on what happened to two of balons sons during the rebellion? or does robb just simply think this is all water under the brige? It also proves that he doesnt understand the concept of a hostage, wich was used frequently during this time period to prevent an old enemy from going to war against you again. Sending back this Hostage nullifies this advantageos defence. Did Robb never ask anyone why Balons son was raised among them? he seems to have little to none education on war, history, politics or relations between the ruling families.

Im not going to defend Theons actions at winterfell, by that point he was pretty much desperatly trying to prove himself by killing people he had known all his life to impress ironborn warriors that he had known for a few months and none of them had shown him anything but contempt and disrespect when they first met, despite Theon being the only son of their paramount lord.

Taking winterfell was completley optional and some of his actions there were impossible to defend by todays ethics and even if some of them were actually not his idea, he ordered them to be carried out. but taking winterfell was of course highly attractive in theons eyes since he thought it would prove to his father both his strategical effieciency and finally prove his loyalty to his familiy by defiling the Stark seat.

Apart from that, theon had no choice but to take part of his fathers war campaign, and the whole thing could be avoided if Robb spent a little more time thinking his decisions through and consulting advisors before going with risky impulsive ideas.

Theon is not hated for listening to his father. He's hated for taking WF, supposedly killing Robb's heirs, supposedly burning Winterfell, he kills his teachers, etc.

If Theon's duty is to his House then he shouldn't pledge fealty without consent from his Lord.

[Maester Ruin]

It doesn't matter because he turned his cloak on his King. If you're father tells you to rebel against the throne then you're still a traitor to the throne. How is this not absolutely clear.

Robb was never the king of the Iron Islands, so technically he could only be theons king as long as he was in the north or fighting alongside robbs army and volounterly accepted Robb as his King. Even if Theon genuinley wanted robb for his king, wich i dont doubt, the day he returned to pyke and Balon declared himself the King of the Iron Islands, Balon became theons father AND king at the same time, so according to both gods and men theon was bound to serve his newley crowned King by every law in the seven kingdoms.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Robb was never the king of the Iron Islands, so technically he could only be theons king as long as he was in the north or fighting alongside robbs army and volounterly accepted Robb as his King. Even if Theon genuinley wanted robb for his king, wich i dont doubt, the day he returned to pyke and Balon declared himself the King of the Iron Islands, Balon became theons father AND king at the same time, so according to both gods and men theon was bound to serve his newley crowned King by every law in the seven kingdoms.

I'm sure this is why Theon feels guilty about it all and wishes he died with Robb.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Wich once again proves that he is stupid or at least ignorant. i cant see how Robb Stark doesnt know about Balons hatred for his house when "Outsiders" like Tyrion Lannister does it. Did Ned never tell him about the Greyjoy rebellion? Did Robb never ask? Did Maester Luwin forget to educate him on what happened to two of balons sons during the rebellion? or does robb just simply think this is all water under the brige? It also proves that he doesnt understand the concept of a hostage, wich was used frequently during this time period to prevent an old enemy from going to war against you again. Sending back this Hostage nullifies this advantageos defence. Did Robb never ask anyone why Balons son was raised among them? he seems to have little to none education on war, history, politics or relations between the ruling families.

Im not going to defend Theons actions at winterfell, by that point he was pretty much desperatly trying to prove himself by killing people he had known all his life to impress ironborn warriors that he had known for a few months and none of them had shown him anything but contempt and disrespect when they first met, despite Theon being the only son of their paramount lord.

Taking winterfell was completley optional and some of his actions there were impossible to defend by todays ethics and even if some of them were actually not his idea, he ordered them to be carried out. but taking winterfell was of course highly attractive in theons eyes since he thought it would prove to his father both his strategical effieciency and finally prove his loyalty to his familiy by defiling the Stark seat.

Apart from that, theon had no choice but to take part of his fathers war campaign, and the whole thing could be avoided if Robb spent a little more time thinking his decisions through and consulting advisors before going with risky impulsive ideas.

1) Robb: Stupid. A stupid boy who thought he could trust this other boy he grew up with and and sworn to him. Stupid yes, arrogant no.

2) Today's ethics - just to clarify, are you saying the murder of the orphans is justifiable under the ethics of a medieval society? Just need to clarify that point.

3) The taking of Winterfell - utterly stupid on strategic grounds. Supply lines too long and unsupportable as explained by his sister. Contempt from the Iron Born for the move is completely justifiable. It is as stupid a move as Robb's was to send him to Balon.

[Mulled Wino]

Robb was never the king of the Iron Islands, so technically he could only be theons king as long as he was in the north or fighting alongside robbs army and volounterly accepted Robb as his King. Even if Theon genuinley wanted robb for his king, wich i dont doubt, the day he returned to pyke and Balon declared himself the King of the Iron Islands, Balon became theons father AND king at the same time, so according to both gods and men theon was bound to serve his newley crowned King by every law in the seven kingdoms.

So he did or didnt break an oath?

[Maester Ruin]

I'm sure this is why Theon feels guilty about it all and wishes he died with Robb.

I agree, The Starks where the kindest people poor Theon ever met. Some of them might not be the smartest people around, but they welcomed him into his household despite that his father waged war against them, and Robb was truly the brother he never had. If it was not for that rushed and poorly thought out trip to pyke, he would probably have died among them at the Twins, IF the red wedding even would have happened if the ironborn led by theon didnt take Winterfell and allegadly kill Robbs Brothers and burn the castle down, causing Robb to lose his composure and break his marriage pact. its a really tragic tale

[Mulled Wino]

I agree, The Starks where the kindest people poor Theon ever met. Some of them might not be the smartest people around, but they welcomed him into his household despite that his father waged war against them, and Robb was truly the brother he never had. If it was not for that rushed and poorly thought out trip to pyke, he would probably have died among them at the Twins, IF the red wedding even would have happened if the ironborn led by theon didnt take Winterfell and allegadly kill Robbs Brothers and burn the castle down, causing Robb to lose his composure and break his marriage pact. its a really tragic tale

Not how it happened in the show. Robb broke his marriage pact before her found out about winterfell.

[Maester Ruin]

So he did or didnt break an oath?

From a total stark perspective, he did break his oath to Robb.

From an unbiased, larger perspective, he first accepted Robb as King, who sent him back to his homelands to deliver a not-so-well-thought out proposal to his paramount lord father, trying to get the one house in westeros that hates the Starks as much or even more than the Lannisters to join with them in an alliance against the crown. And it also just happened to be that Balon had declared himself a King aswell, wich sadly made him Theons rightful king both by Land and Blood. And since theon, the starks prior hostage, had been delivered straight to Balons door without thinking it through forst, there was now nothing to stop the ironmen from raiding and pillaging the north. Its a really tragic tale, wich is what makes Theon such an interesting character.

Theon traveled to his home islands on the orders of King Robb, only to find out that his father had also crowned himself King himself. Thats a pretty sticky situation, one of the kings is your best friend while the other one is your father whose lands and titles you are meant to inheirit. Whatever side you choose, you betray the other part and you will most likely have feelings of regret no matter wich side you choose. But the law and thousands of years of tradition leaves little room for this choice anyways since a son should always obey his father, especially if he calls himself a king.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

...

Can you please clarify that you are appealing to the standards of medieval ethics with regard to the orphans.

[Maester Ruin]

Not how it happened in the show. Robb broke his marriage pact before her found out about winterfell.

But thats how it happened in the Books, after the reports of Bran and Rickons alleged deaths, Robb is overcome with grief and loses his composure of honour, and seeks comfort by bedding the gentle Jeyne Westerling, whom he latter marries to save her honour. correct me if i am wrong havent read Storm o Swords since 2010