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Xcorpyo001

[Book Spoilers] Was that Domeric?

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Unless they've changed it for the show, this is how it was in the books:

Roose definitely doesn't like his bastard, if anything he absolutely hates him, but he does recognize their similarity. He has kind of a dark, ironic sense of humor about it all. If Roose ever liked or cared about anyone it was certainly Domeric, he talks about his dead son with a fondness that he doesn't really seem to feel for anything else.

Domeric's implied to have been a decent, average guy, great at racing horses, a little bookish, and on good terms with most everyone. When he found out he had a bastard half-brother he wanted to reach out in friendship, which was probably a fatal mistake that lead to his untimely death. He was already dead before the start of the series, too, so he was strictly a "background character."

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Unless they've changed it for the show, this is how it was in the books:

Roose definitely doesn't like his bastard, if anything he absolutely hates him, but he does recognize their similarity. He has kind of a dark, ironic sense of humor about it all. If Roose ever liked or cared about anyone it was certainly Domeric, he talks about his dead son with a fondness that he doesn't really seem to feel for anything else.

Domeric's implied to have been a decent, average guy, great at racing horses, a little bookish, and on good terms with most everyone. When he found out he had a bastard half-brother he wanted to reach out in friendship, which was probably a fatal mistake that lead to his untimely death. He was already dead before the start of the series, too, so he was strictly a "background character."

okay then, that all rings a bell... I butchered it as I suspected

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If Domeric was alive, Roose wouldn't talk about his bastard. Furthermore, if Domeric was alive, he would have gone to war with his father, like all the other Northern lords did. He would have been shamed to stay behind. There is no Domeric in the show

Yep, you're probably right.

I just couldn't understand why all the soldiers had to die. And how Ramsay convinced his men to play along. What was the plan from their point of view? I don't think that Ramsay went like "I'll free Theon, you'll chase and catch him, scare the shit out of him, and then I'll come and kill you all, and fool Theon in making him believe I'm his friend" and his soldiers were like "Great plan boss! Please, pick me as one of the guys that has to willingly die in order for you to sell this to Theon! No, pick me instead!"

Maybe Ramsay lied to his soldiers and told them that he will wait for the night and free him while the guards are asleep in their camp in the forest, or whatever.

And if he planned on killing his soldiers from the start, why not five random soldiers, not the guy that tortured him so far. From what I've seen so far, most of the soldiers aren't known for their intelligence, and if Ramsay has someone that can play his role so well, why sacrifice him so easily just to sell the rescue better to Theon?

Eahhh, we'll have to see how this plays out in the end. Either way, this Ramsay arc is good so far, with or without fratricide in the mix.

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It's probably just me, but the Ramsay character as depicted so far is almost exactly the way I pictured...Theon. What mostly set off this train of thought is the display of archery when he "rescues" Theon from the guards that caught up to him. In the book Theon is described as a superlative archer. The smirk as he shoots the last guard that calls him a little bastard and his hair is another big one.

Incidentally isn't he the actor from Misfits, that UK show?

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Yep, he's Simon from Misfits. Incidentally, anyone who's never seen this show should check it out on hulu. All the episodes are free to watch, it's a great show, and you can get a glimpse at Iwan's acting chops if you haven't seen them already.

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Domeric -- hadn't even thought of him, truth be told, I'd completely forgotten about him. Wasn't he only mentioned in the book and spoken of as already dead? But that does make sense - thanks to all previous posters for that. Also thought the shock value there was top notch, but was really confused about Ramsay killing his own men...made me question whether or not it was really Ramsay. But don't think he can truly be called Reek yet...that will be another huge shocker when it's revealed.

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Yep, you're probably right.

I just couldn't understand why all the soldiers had to die. And how Ramsay convinced his men to play along. What was the plan from their point of view? I don't think that Ramsay went like "I'll free Theon, you'll chase and catch him, scare the shit out of him, and then I'll come and kill you all, and fool Theon in making him believe I'm his friend" and his soldiers were like "Great plan boss! Please, pick me as one of the guys that has to willingly die in order for you to sell this to Theon! No, pick me instead!"

Maybe Ramsay lied to his soldiers and told them that he will wait for the night and free him while the guards are asleep in their camp in the forest, or whatever.

And if he planned on killing his soldiers from the start, why not five random soldiers, not the guy that tortured him so far. From what I've seen so far, most of the soldiers aren't known for their intelligence, and if Ramsay has someone that can play his role so well, why sacrifice him so easily just to sell the rescue better to Theon?

Eahhh, we'll have to see how this plays out in the end. Either way, this Ramsay arc is good so far, with or without fratricide in the mix.

It wouldn't be the first added scene that lacked logic... they write seasons so fast, in only 1-2 months, that they miss things. Because this was a straight in your face thing, they probably have something in their minds (maybe they were faithful to his father, and not to himself), but they might never explain it.

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It wouldn't be the first added scene that lacked logic... they write seasons so fast, in only 1-2 months, that they miss things. Because this was a straight in your face thing, they probably have something in their minds (maybe they were faithful to his father, and not to himself), but they might never explain it.

I thought it lacked logic as well, if Ramsey kills his own men all the time as part of his "hunts" he would already be dead. I'm not sure why they couldn't have simply had Ramsey let him go, hunt him down and then be 'ha ha' fooled you, and drag him back to the Dreadfort. I still think the actor is much too handsome for Ramsey, its the first time I really see something as being miscast.

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I thought it lacked logic as well, if Ramsey kills his own men all the time as part of his "hunts" he would already be dead. I'm not sure why they couldn't have simply had Ramsey let him go, hunt him down and then be 'ha ha' fooled you, and drag him back to the Dreadfort. I still think the actor is much too handsome for Ramsey, its the first time I really see something as being miscast.

Something occured to me. Maybe the reason why Ramsey freed Theon and then met up with him later is because he wants to get his trust. Theon will lead him to Yara (or at least somewhere where there are Ironborn, judging from the promo of next week's episode). Maybe Ramsey's plan is to infiltrate the Ironborn's castle and then during the night open the gates so his men can take over it, gaining more land and power for the Boltons. There are some flaws in my theory though:

Ramsey said "go east". If I recall correctly the Dreadfort is situated towards the eastern coast and the only thing that's situated east of the Dreadfort is the Karhold (or Lord Umber's castle, I can't seem to remember atm), neither of which were ever taken by the Ironborn. As for Ramsey killing his own men: maybe he did it to further gain Theon's trust (however, if I were in the same position, freeing me from a sadistical rapist would me more than enough to gain my complete trust :P), or perhaps the rapist was just overzealous and went after Theon before Ramsey could tell him to stay put.

Ramsey pretending to be a janitor and killing his own men seems just to elaborate and nonpractical if it indeed turns out to be nothing more than a prank.

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It is hard to imagine how they will explain Ramsay killing what we presume are his own men. I tend to agree that it is unlikely that it would be his brother since Roose would have mentioned his true son as the one to take Winterfell not his bastard, or his true son would have been with Roose as they went to war. I'll reserve judgment until we see how it plays out, but killing his own men didn't make much sense based on what we know from the books.

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The only power Ramsay has so far in the TV show is that he is being allowed to sweep the floors in the dungeons. Yes, it may be a ploy, or simply a reality he plans to rectify the first chance he gets, which is Theon's timely escape.

This will be a nice setup for the will Robb will make to legitimize Jon. Roose will also be forced to legitimize his bastard, because he's in a war and if he dies he'll have no legal heirs.

The death of his son will make him realize that he needs another heir, so his 'sacrifice' in taking one for the Stark team and marry a very fertile Frey will be a win/win for him, especially if he plans to get rid of his bastard at a later time, when he'll once again have a rightful heir that can survive Ramsay. Just as a backup, at least.

Roose does not legitimze his son, Ramsay does not get legitimized until after the red wedding when its clear the boltons are now fighting for the lannisters. Hes legitimized by king tommen

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We know from the book that Ramsay became the heir of Roose Bolton only after Domeric Bolton, the rightful heir to the Dreadfort suffered an unfortunate 'accident', most likely by Ramsay's hands, as Roose himself tells Theon at a later time.

Could the producers insert that in the tv show to better portray Ramsay's true character?

Until this episode I believed everything in the Dreadfort dungeon with Theon's torturers was just a ploy and everybody knew that the guy torturing Theon was not Ramsay, and they played along in his escape so that Ramsay could have one of his little hunts.

Now I believe his position is a normal one for a bastard raised at his lord father's court. Jon was a exception for many reasons, and even him had some problems with Cat.

I believe Ramsay released Theon not for his own entertainment, but to set a trap for his brother. Once he'll trick Theon in revealing all that happened at Winterfell, he'll just take Theon back to the Dreadfort, accuse Theon for the death of Domeric and his guards, and force Roose to declare him his next heir, especially after getting the information from Theon, proving his worth as his father's right hand.

This will really change the scene with Roose and Reek/Theon having their first face to face.

I believe Domeric was dead even before Theon arrived in the Dreadfort.

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If it is Domeric, it's another case of character assassination (See: Renly Baratheon)

There's that term being thrown around again. Let's say it is Domeric, is it really that big a deal? He wasn't even in the books and they'd be using him on screen to add a bit more motivation to Ramsey's little games. Instead, what we'll likely get (if anything) is some exposition from Roose about how he loved Domeric and believes Ramsay took part in his death instead of actually seeing it happen on-screen.

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What if Theon's savior explains that he is Reek and that the man he killed was the bastard. Then, after getting what he wants out of Theon he'll be able to pull the rug out from under him and show him his true nature. I wonder if D&D are going to use "Reek" or have abandoned the idea completely. I hope not, Theon's arc was among the best in A Dance with Dragons.

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Yes, but why would the "original" reek be doing the torturing or dressed like someone in charge, or look so healthy? There has been no reek on the show to this point, so trying to explain that this dead guy was him and what that meant would be exceptionally difficult now that he is already dead. Ramsay could try to pass himself off as Reek, though he is not dressed for the part. And it's questionable what else he could hope to want from Theon or what more he could reveal that he didn't during torture. On a side note, I honestly thought when they were pulling off Theon's pants that they were going to castrate him.

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With all the crap Ramsey does, is it really that hard to believe he'd play a handful of soldiers from the Dreadfort? I really doubt that guy was an important "torturer", I'm pretty sure anyone could turn a crank and stick a pin into someones hand and Ramsey really wouldn't be too concerned over replacing them at will.

Informing soldiers of Theons escape and then hunting down Theon for sport...while disposing of expendable garrison from the Dreadfort in the process just to mindf%#k Theon doesn't at all seem out of character for the Bastard of Bolton. It's actually probably one of the least scumbag things he's got on his ledger.

And...there really doesn't need to even be a prior Reek at this point. That ship has sailed or they would have had him at Winterfell. It's a lot of back story and stuff to cram in now just to say Theon is the "new" Reek...Ramsey could just start calling him that just because and it doesn't have to be anymore complicated than that.

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Ramsey is an absolute sociopath, is it really that much a stretch to think he wouldn't sacrifice his own goons for his sport?

He wouldn't think twice about killing them, he has more men after all, and it really sells to Theon that he is trying to help him.

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Something occured to me. Maybe the reason why Ramsey freed Theon and then met up with him later is because he wants to get his trust. Theon will lead him to Yara (or at least somewhere where there are Ironborn, judging from the promo of next week's episode). Maybe Ramsey's plan is to infiltrate the Ironborn's castle and then during the night open the gates so his men can take over it, gaining more land and power for the Boltons. There are some flaws in my theory though:

Yes, I think infiltrating an Ironborn occupied castle with minimal losses is worth killing 5 Bolton soldiers. But Ramsey has to make sure Asha is not there, because she can blow the "your sister sent me" comment down pretty fast.

The infiltration part comes very late in the books(somewhere in the next season). Maybe he'll use Theon to infiltrate more than one castle under ironborn occupation, with torture sessions in between the conquests.

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