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What do people think of Locke? [book spoilers]

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I think a character known as "the crippler" who is notorious for lopping off limbs and thinking for himself might have been weirder than a character that actually has some believable political motivation for non-readers.

I don't get the inclination that Locke gets his kicks from lopping off hands and feet often.

Some people have a hard time distinguishing them all and this guy will be dead pretty soon, his entire backstory isnt necessary.

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So now the problem is with the book rather than the show?

Regardless of that, I think your "shoulds" are unreasonable. It would be quite foolish for Tywin to do the things you are suggesting. As we know, he isn't a hotheaded all-or-nothing character. He's cold and calculating, and he NEEDS Roose Bolton's treachery with the Freys in order to defeat Robb.

If he could just go destroy everyone purely because he's such a badass, why doesn't he just do that in the first place?

1. The problem is not the book, because in the book there was the ironic twist of jamie losing his hand to the men tywin originally unleashed, and they did not carry the Bolton Banners. When it came to the bloody mummers, it was actually more Tywins fault than Rooses (if i remember correctly, it was a long time ago since i read the book) since roose had no part in the cutting of jamies hand, and the bloody mummers did not carry his sigil or banner, it was in fact Tywins fault for unleashing such a brutal and morbid group of sellswords

2. Remember that Tywin went to war against the riverlands because cat had siezed tyrion? and this was when Ned Stark was still hand of the king and Tywins grandson did not sit on the iron throne. When people disrespect house Lannister, Tywin can be both ruthless and hot-headed. Why would he start a war against one of the major houses of westeros to protect the honour of the son he hates, but let Bolton get away with permanently maiming his eldest son? if a relativley insignificant house like bolton (pre-RW and their rise to paramount house status) can get away with something like that, "house lannister is officially no longer a house to be feared" and Tywin is turning into Tytos.

3. No, Tywin is not so dependant on Roose that he is going to accept such a slight against his family. they have said several times in this season that Tywin alone has twice as many men as the north host. if some of his tyrell vassals joined in he could probably outnumber them 4 to 1, and as i said the path to the north is temporarly blocked by the ironborn blockade at Moat Coilin so it would take a while for Robbs host to retreat. Tywin could crush the stark army, bolton included, on the battlefield. he does not need Bolton or Frey to win the war, it would have been an easier solution yes, but i would not regard it as an option (again, unless tywin is turning into tytos) after boltons slight against the Lannister Family (to those who wants to point out that it was locke who did it, i counter with a tywin quote: "when soliders lack discipline the fault lies with their commander." again, he was carrying the flayed man of bolton banner. And nobody wants to get involved with the Freys unless it is absolutley nessecary

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I think the differences between Vargo and Locke are profound despite their similar actions. Vargo is a sellsword, Locke is a Lord. Vargo is a foreigner, Locke is a Northman.

Jaime gets his hand cut off in the show because he, essentially, continually insults Locke from the beginning of their conversation to their end. The thing is, Jaime completely misses he's insulting Locke. Jaime is used to being a man with no honor so he assumes they're just waiting for a sufficiently high bribe.

Locke is a vile murdering rapist but he THINKS he has honor.

Locke isn't for sale. Locke isn't for sale and Jaime's dogged insistence of implying he IS for sale by his bribe offers, finally just makes Locke so ****ed off he lops off his hand.

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If locke is a Lord why was he Carrying Boltons banners and not his own? maybe just a small goof/mistake from the producers side, or they decided to upgrade locke to a lord after the second episode was filmed.

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If locke is a Lord why was he Carrying Boltons banners and not his own? maybe just a small goof/mistake from the producers side, or they decided to upgrade locke to a lord after the second episode was filmed.

It could be Locke Bolton. Third cousin twice removed's nephew.

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I think the differences between Vargo and Locke are profound despite their similar actions. Vargo is a sellsword, Locke is a Lord. Vargo is a foreigner, Locke is a Northman.

Jaime gets his hand cut off in the show because he, essentially, continually insults Locke from the beginning of their conversation to their end. The thing is, Jaime completely misses he's insulting Locke. Jaime is used to being a man with no honor so he assumes they're just waiting for a sufficiently high bribe.

Locke is a vile murdering rapist but he THINKS he has honor.

Locke isn't for sale. Locke isn't for sale and Jaime's dogged insistence of implying he IS for sale by his bribe offers, finally just makes Locke so ****ed off he lops off his hand.

I like this reading.

I think Jaime has become so used to being treated with cotton gloves, getting away with murdur in Robb's camp, insulting Brienne day in and day out that he is not quite away of the implications of shooting his mouth now the situation has changed. As he says to Brienne "I am the valuable hostage here..." forgetting that he may be valuable but that doesn't mean he's immune.

He insults Locke's intelligence horribly "Sapphires... You know, the blue gems..." Locke has to set that right.

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One of the great additions to the show was visual storytelling about the differences between the Lannisters and the Northmen. Personal honor is HUGE up there, even if you're a vile disgusting person. So when Umber gets his fingers eaten by a dire wolf for an insult at a party, it's a fairly acceptable lesson in manners.

Locke gave Jaime an acceptable lesson in the fact the Northmen may not win this war but, in all likelihood, may go for scorched Earth revenge versus surrender.

They're savages up North and proud of it.

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@Morrigan: You probably heard this audition tape ... The password is ned, IIRC. I also thought it was straight from the books because of it. :D Now I'm not so sure.

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1. The problem is not the book, because in the book there was the ironic twist of jamie losing his hand to the men tywin originally unleashed, and they did not carry the Bolton Banners. When it came to the bloody mummers, it was actually more Tywins fault than Rooses (if i remember correctly, it was a long time ago since i read the book) since roose had no part in the cutting of jamies hand, and the bloody mummers did not carry his sigil or banner, it was in fact Tywins fault for unleashing such a brutal and morbid group of sellswords

2. Remember that Tywin went to war against the riverlands because cat had siezed tyrion? and this was when Ned Stark was still hand of the king and Tywins grandson did not sit on the iron throne. When people disrespect house Lannister, Tywin can be both ruthless and hot-headed. Why would he start a war against one of the major houses of westeros to protect the honour of the son he hates, but let Bolton get away with permanently maiming his eldest son? if a relativley insignificant house like bolton (pre-RW and their rise to paramount house status) can get away with something like that, "house lannister is officially no longer a house to be feared" and Tywin is turning into Tytos.

3. No, Tywin is not so dependant on Roose that he is going to accept such a slight against his family. they have said several times in this season that Tywin alone has twice as many men as the north host. if some of his tyrell vassals joined in he could probably outnumber them 4 to 1, and as i said the path to the north is temporarly blocked by the ironborn blockade at Moat Coilin so it would take a while for Robbs host to retreat. Tywin could crush the stark army, bolton included, on the battlefield. he does not need Bolton or Frey to win the war, it would have been an easier solution yes, but i would not regard it as an option (again, unless tywin is turning into tytos) after boltons slight against the Lannister Family (to those who wants to point out that it was locke who did it, i counter with a tywin quote: "when soliders lack discipline the fault lies with their commander." again, he was carrying the flayed man of bolton banner. And nobody wants to get involved with the Freys unless it is absolutley nessecary

TL;DR - you're right about everything, congratulations! Hopefully everything happens exactly the way you suggest, screw all the stuff of Jaime rescuing Brienne, etc.

Anyway, Locke is cool. I hope we see more of him, and Vargo Hoat can suck it.

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TL;DR - you're right about everything, congratulations! Hopefully everything happens exactly the way you suggest, screw all the stuff of Jaime rescuing Brienne, etc.

Anyway, Locke is cool. I hope we see more of him, and Vargo Hoat can suck it.

what did i suggest again?

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what did i suggest again?

I don't remember either. Something about skipping going back to Harrenhal and just taking Jaime to King's Landing.

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Locke is a patriot. A staunch North loyalist who would rather die than having the North under the Iron Throne again. He realizes the truth in Jaime's words and thinks Roose Bolton would release Jaime and thus, betray the North.

So he cuts Jaime's hand to keep his lord in place. How about that?

The voice of reason. This actually makes more sense than Vargo Hoat being so loyal to the North, to me.

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I don't remember either. Something about skipping going back to Harrenhal and just taking Jaime to King's Landing.

i dont think that was me, sorry. i remember suggesting in the EP2 forum that it would fit nicely if jamie reaches harrenhall around episode 7-8, where roose who has now decided to switch sides throws locke in the bearpit while jamie taunts the struggling hunter.

the thing that annoyed me the most about jamies approach in the book after losing his hand is that he was so filled with lust for revenge, but he never asked Roose to let him kill/torture Hoat as a sign of good will. i really doubt that Roose would have said no, considering how much he could gain through the Lannister alliance and the fact that Hoat was essentially a dead man already.

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They have to tread carefully with how Roose handles the situation or Roose's betrayal of Robb is going to become far too obvious. Letting him kill his own men because effing Jaime Lannister asks so would be a dead giveaway. I remember thinking Roose was simply chickening out and just wanted to keep himself safe in the books, but wasn't necessarily going to bring about Robb's downfall himself.

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i dont think that was me, sorry. i remember suggesting in the EP2 forum that it would fit nicely if jamie reaches harrenhall around episode 7-8, where roose who has now decided to switch sides throws locke in the bearpit while jamie taunts the struggling hunter.

the thing that annoyed me the most about jamies approach in the book after losing his hand is that he was so filled with lust for revenge, but he never asked Roose to let him kill/torture Hoat as a sign of good will. i really doubt that Roose would have said no, considering how much he could gain through the Lannister alliance and the fact that Hoat was essentially a dead man already.

Well you said something about Roose sending Locke back with Jaime, Brienne and Qyburn. That's what I was referring to, but it doesn't matter haha.

I don't remember him lusting after revenge (I'm not saying he wasn't and that you're wrong, just that I don't really remember it). I mostly seem to remember him despairing about the loss of his ability and having a kind of identity crisis.

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They have to tread carefully with how Roose handles the situation or Roose's betrayal of Robb is going to become far too obvious. Letting him kill his own men because effing Jaime Lannister asks so would be a dead giveaway. I remember thinking Roose was simply chickening out and just wanted to keep himself safe in the books, but wasn't necessarily going to bring about Robb's downfall himself.

true, but the TV series usualy leaps over such subtle things for the sake of "good television". Jamie is also a fan favourite among the audience so i think a lot of people will be thrilled to see him get some kind of revenge, it would be a big bummer for lots of people if locke just got away.

Even if Jamie is technically a one-handed prisoner, his role as a messanger is far to imporant to Roose to neglect his demands. And Boltons generally dont care that much about their servants, as ramsay showed us. If i were roose i would give jamie anything he wanted just to show good faith to Tywin. I re-read the roose-jamie chapter earlier today and i kinda get the feeling that jamie knows deep down that he has some kind of advantage since Bolton really wants to set sail to this pact. And Jamie does not fear death, especially now that he has lost his hand, he shouldnt be afraid to ask...

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yea locke is just a more boring and less interesting version of Vargo Hoat. I also agree that the hand chopping in this episode would seem almost unnecessary from a non-readers POV. However Locke isn't all bad really, he's just not as interesting (as I've stated) as Vargo Hoat.

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yea locke is just a more boring and less interesting version of Vargo Hoat. I also agree that the hand chopping in this episode would seem almost unnecessary from a non-readers POV. However Locke isn't all bad really, he's just not as interesting (as I've stated) as Vargo Hoat.

It depends on his motivations but the Bloody Mummurs aren't deep characters. They're cartoon villains.

If Locke really did just get THAT annoyed with Jaime's disrespect I think it's better.

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I´m curious as to how they are going to portray Bolton as a scarier man than Locke. Right now, I´m not seeing it.

"Roose Bolton's silence was a hundred times more threatening than Vargo Hoat's slobbering malevolence"

Get Jamie to take the piss, and watch Roose stare at him silently. Watch Jamie's grin evaporate. Simple :drunk:

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I don't think Locke becoming Bolton's bannerman makes a difference. In the books, Bolton voices concern that Vargo could have been seen as acting under Bolton's authority. As for Jamie, he has the allegiance of house Bolton at stake. The RW cannot happen without a guarantee of impunity from Tywin. Overlooking the act to guarantee an end to the war? Tywin is a pragmatic man. Why punish a house that want to ally at a pivotal moment? someone with authority in the North has to rule the North, and who better than the second strongest house who wants to ally with you? The rest don't.

Furthermore, cutting off Jamie's hand was not a political act of defiance from House Bolton- the house is considering allying with the Lannisters. True- Roose needs to be seen to punish Locke, and sending Tywin some flayed skin would certainly smooth things over, but the situation is nothing like the Reynes or Catelyn Tully who were directly opposed to him and continuing to defy him. Tywin wouldn't cut his nose off to spite his face.

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