[Book spoilers]Criticism ( the little things )

[Jolene Brown]

You people are nuts, the Asha scene is the best sex scene in the whole series. It is role-playing and it is hot and there is nothing remotely misogynist about it.

[Masamune]

it always amazes me that certain posters can type with their lips firmly attached to D&D's butts.

But it's true. They are completely different.

The books rock, the TV show (S1 aside) is blowing major chunks.

[Kittykatknits]

You people are nuts, the Asha scene is the best sex scene in the whole series. It is role-playing and it is hot and there is nothing remotely misogynist about it.

I agree so much. It's an incredibly empowering scene for Asha, role playing included.

[Joyful Union]

I agree so much. It's an incredibly empowering scene for Asha, role playing included.

Incredibly empowering? Wanting to be completely dominated by a man during sex? Pretending to be raped?

[Ran]

Choosing when and how and with who you have your sexual experiences is, indeed, empowering. Many women in Westeros usually don't, after all, get any of these choices.

Feminist circles are divided on the topic, it is true, but feminist scholarship seems to increasingly accept that there's no real no contradiction.

And since we're on the topic of stuff that isn't misogynistic, Cersei with Taena was not intended to be titillating -- it was intended as disturbing, not hot and sexy, because it revealed some pretty dark aspects of Cersei's character.

[protar]

Incredibly empowering? Wanting to be completely dominated by a man during sex? Pretending to be raped?

well essentially as it is consensual sex, Asha is only submitting because she wants to. Which means she is giving Qarl power over her, and to quote Balon "what is given can just as easily be taken away." So in a round about way, Asha is the one in control because she's deciding how much power Qarl has.

[Khal Porno]

Incredibly empowering? Wanting to be completely dominated by a man during sex? Pretending to be raped?

Both surprisingly common female sex fantasies, which seems counterintuitive but it's true.

[Kittykatknits]

Incredibly empowering? Wanting to be completely dominated by a man during sex? Pretending to be raped?

Choosing when and how and with who you have your sexual experiences is, indeed, empowering. Many women in Westeros usually don't, after all, get any of these choices.

Feminist circles are divided on the topic, it is true, but feminist scholarship seems to increasingly accept that there's no real no contradiction.

And since we're on the topic of stuff that isn't misogynistic, Cersei with Taena was not intended to be titillating -- it was intended as disturbing, not hot and sexy, because it revealed some pretty dark aspects of Cersei's character.

Focusing on these scene as just a rape fantasy misses out on so much of what is going on. As Ran pointed out, most women in Westeros do not get the choices that Asha does. The big point of that scene is not a woman who wants to be dominated by the big, strong man. The whole scene shows us that Asha is the one with the power in the relationship. She defines what is sexy, she defines what their relationship looks like. We view the entire thing through Asha's eyes, we are in her head to hear what she thinks. Qarl exists here for Asha. She is the one telling us why he is sexy, what is attractive about him, why she chooses a relationship with him, and so on.

Compare it with the use of sex and nudity on the show which I've often pointed out is very skewed toward a heterosexual and male viewpoint, with lots of male gaze. This scene is the direct opposite. It's Asha that has the gaze, Qarl is the one being looked upon, it's the female who defines anything.

So, yes, incredibly empowering and I'd even say one of the most sex positive scenes in the entire series. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say how much I appreciate the way Martin handles his depiction of women in ASOIAF.

Both surprisingly common female sex fantasies, which seems counterintuitive but it's true.

Not as surprising as you might think. Many, many women are going to be raped, sexually assualted, or subject to attempts of rape and sexual assault. A fantasy like this one is a way to reclaim power over events where you are powerless.

[Sansa in the North]

Focusing on these scene as just a rape fantasy misses out on so much of what is going on. As Ran pointed out, most women in Westeros do not get the choices that Asha does. The big point of that scene is not a woman who wants to be dominated by the big, strong man. The whole scene shows us that Asha is the one with the power in the relationship. She defines what is sexy, she defines what their relationship looks like. We view the entire thing through Asha's eyes, we are in her head to hear what she thinks. Qarl exists here for Asha. She is the one telling us why he is sexy, what is attractive about him, why she chooses a relationship with him, and so on.

Compare it with the use of sex and nudity on the show which I've often pointed out is very skewed toward a heterosexual and male viewpoint, with lots of male gaze. This scene is the direct opposite. It's Asha that has the gaze, Qarl is the one being looked upon, it's the female who defines anything.

So, yes, incredibly empowering and I'd even say one of the most sex positive scenes in the entire series. It's a perfect example of what I'm talking about when I say how much I appreciate the way Martin handles his depiction of women in ASOIAF.

Wow! You've just made me see the whole scene in an entirely new light. Respect, is all I've got to say. I take back what I said earlier about this scene being bad.

I still think the Dany lesbian scene is bad, thou.

[Khal Porno]

A fantasy like this one is a way to reclaim power over events where you are powerless.

Well...maybe, but from my experience (as the other party in the fantasy) that isn't the motivation behind it although I suppose it may be for some.

[Clariana]

Incredibly empowering? Wanting to be completely dominated by a man during sex? Pretending to be raped?

It's with "Quarl the maid" isn't it? Pretty certain that it is insinuated in the books that was Asha who initiated him. There is some reference to her showing him the world and handing him his first peach. As are other females, I'm happy with that scene particularly given the fact that Asha is undoubtedly the dominant partner.

[Kittykatknits]

Wow! You've just made me see the whole scene in an entirely new light. Respect, is all I've got to say. I take back what I said earlier about this scene being bad.

I still think the Dany lesbian scene is bad, thou.

Glad to hear that. :)

Well...maybe, but from my experience (as the other party in the fantasy) that isn't the motivation behind it although I suppose it may be for some.

It's not my personal fantasy, I've read about it though. Fantasies can be all over the place for men and women. Some women have rape fantasies, for some its sex with strangers, or a seduction fantasy or ones where the woman is in a dominant position. All over the place and they exist for their own reasons. These days, my fantasies involve my husband doing household chores and being a dad, such is my life. :)

And this thread has taken a turn....

It's with "Quarl the maid" isn't it? Pretty certain that it is insinuated in the books that was Asha who initiated him. There is some reference to her showing him the world and handing him his first peach. As are other females, I'm happy with that scene particularly given the fact that Asha is undoubtedly the dominant partner.

Yep, its heavily implied that she was his first. Asha also insinuates that he was not her only partner in the time they had been together too.

[Dragonstoned]

I liked it.