[Book spoilers]Criticism ( the little things )

[StarkDragon]

GRRM is pretty guilty of this sort of thing at times. Tyrion during the battle of Blackwater? He was a whirlwind of death! Without any training and very little experience, suddenly he's able to cut his way through experienced men at arms and knights. It stretched believability when he was on a horse, but on foot?

Alas, that's a very sound point.

One of those very few moments GRRM sadly made me 'hold his hand' in, like other fantasies. :crying:

[SerArthurHeath]

Nothing quite beats Wildings firing arrows from the base of the Wall and hitting and killing people that weren't themselves

[Connor Snow]

I don't remember everyone hating Edmure so bloody passionately in the book, plus Robb's failure to fully explain his plan in the book and the show is annoying, Edmure literally did what he was told to do.

[The hairy bear]

GRRM is pretty guilty of this sort of thing at times. Tyrion during the battle of Blackwater? He was a whirlwind of death! Without any training and very little experience, suddenly he's able to cut his way through experienced men at arms and knights. It stretched believability when he was on a horse, but on foot?

We have never been told that Tyrion had no training in arms in Casterly Rock, so I don't see a problem at all. The first time we see Tyrion (at Winterfell) he already performs acrobatic stunts that require a lot of agility and strength in the arms.

Nothing quite beats Wildings firing arrows from the base of the Wall and hitting and killing people that weren't themselves

That's true. People aiming arrows at the top of a seven hundreed feet Wall (equivalent to a 45 floors skyscraper) is just unbeliavable.

[Harrad]

As someone nicely explicated on another thread, the scene with Pod was a setup for his future activities. With grim unrelenting torture and mayhem, why begrudge a couple of minutes of good ole orgying.

[winterstood]

I disagree with your rants and find them kind of petty.

1) Jaime was in SHOCK. Totally wasn't expecting that and there IS a mind/brain connection. So the shock would most certainly allow for a pause - and then the pain overwhelms your circuitry in your mind and overpowering the shock you feel and you just SCREAM. totally believable. and well acted.

2) You said it yourself - Theon wasn't hit in the head so he wouldn't have a crushed skull - but he would be really wounded from the hit and fall off of the horse.

3) The arrow scene was pretty fast - no denying that. But if the 'boy'(Ramsay) character was as skilled an archer as they're trying to portray then he would've been able to come close to that speed. The only real problem was the third and fourth arrows - they were back to back - almost instantaneously. Although he might have had unshown help. Ramsay is running shit at the dreadfort. That's certainly not impossible.

Episode 3 was the best episode of the season so far. So like I said, I find your rant to be slightly petty.

[Iotun]

I just want to also reinforce what other people said about injuries and pain. Most often in any serious and sudden injury you don't really feel the pain right away, but only after a bit. From my own experiences I would say that this is more so when you have a very sudden injury. So if you have a a screw being drilled slowly into your body, you will feel intense and constant pain, but if you have a knife suddenly thrust into you, or if you are shot with a bullet, you will not feel the pain immediately, more the shock and force knocking into you (I'm not a doctor though, so don't take my word for it). In my experience, the greatest pain always comes afterwards, a few hours in, when the injury has settled in.

Having said that, I do think that Jaime's scream seemed a bit fake, although it wasn't the timing that bothered me.

[Joyful Union]

We have never been told that Tyrion had no training in arms in Casterly Rock, so I don't see a problem at all. The first time we see Tyrion (at Winterfell) he already performs acrobatic stunts that require a lot of agility and strength in the arms.

Its quite clear in the books that he's had no weapons training. He would lack the physical strength in any case. Even if he had had training in Casterly Rock, he hadnt trained at all since, and he would certainly lack the strength of a common soldier in any case.

GRRM has admitted that the acrobatic stunt that Tyrion pulls in his introduction was a mistake, as someone pointed out to him that a dwarf would not be able to do that in real life.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

Eh, the scream I get you on, but the arrows just doesn't keep the continuity of their universe for me, if it was indeed that fast.

It was like skinny ass Gandalf falling faster than that ginormous beast in the Twin Towers LOTR movie. Not that the arrows was that bad, but it's jarringly arguing that the laws of the universe bend at the whim of the author, rather than being completely structured to actual relevant realism.

Which, GRRM's story is suppose to have some fantasy realism to it, so arguing for realism isn't completely unfair imo.

Yes like Tyrion doing backflips vaulting off of roofs and cutting down knights in battle. It's a fantasy series, the guy is freaking good with a bow and killed men standing still at short range.

[Fat Mac]

I thought the Blackfish was way too much of a dick to Edmure. When Edmure kept missing the funeral boat in the book, wasn't Blackfish relatively okay with it, attributing it to Edmure's grief?

That was my main complaint (and I don't have many about the show). The Stannis scene was awkward, but I didn't mind it too much either. Even Stannis has urges I would expect, we just don't see it in the books since we see him through Davos and Jon's eyes.

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

Rant over, discuss.

Firstly, I absolutely LOVE your userID. Douglas Adams For The Win!

Secondly, I get what you are saying, especially the archery points. But I go further.

Any time I see a bow in any Hollywood or TV production I wince... cos they are doing it wrong. That bow Meera is carrying? Yeah, throw it in the bin, its ruined. You don't leave bows - especially the Longbows and Recurve bows strung for any amount of time. Any archer who is relying on a bow for food will only string the bow immediately prior to a hunt and will destring it as soon as they have taken the kill. This preserves the string... sure, you carry spares, but leaving the bow strung causes the bow to "follow the sting". This means the wood in the bow becomes slightly bent and it never has the same power. As a guard, they will only string a bow once they are certain there is an enemy nearby. They never carry them strung 'just-in-case'.

Also, any time I see an actor holding a Longbow or Recurve drawn for any amount of time I call BS. This is extremely hard to do, and all but impossible for a child to sustain for any more than a brief moment in time. You can do it with modern compound bows, but even when you watch something like the Olympics, you see the competitors waiting in the drawn stance for the wind to die, then they 'let down' after a few seconds. The stance Bran was holding in the dream is BS (but yes, I know it was a dream and therefore doesn't matter.)

Its all about the practicalities of the production. Holding a drawn stance or lightning fast shooting of 4 arrows is all about dramatic effect. Having a guy walking around with an unstrung bow looks like he is walking around with a walking staff taller than he is. Next there is a battle and suddenly he has a bow and the audience goes "This is rubbish! Where did that bow suddenly come from?"

Similarly for Jaime's lack of reflex reactions - its all about the dramatic effect not the practicalities... I mean his heart must have stopped too because there was a distinct lack of high pressure blood.

The secret is to just take a breath and enjoy the show for what it is.... and its not a documentary.

[Buster52]

GRRM is pretty guilty of this sort of thing at times. Tyrion during the battle of Blackwater? He was a whirlwind of death! Without any training and very little experience, suddenly he's able to cut his way through experienced men at arms and knights. It stretched believability when he was on a horse, but on foot?

I boxed in my youth. I knew guys who had trained since children and were outstanding, skilled, nationally rated fighters. But a guy with natural ability and an iron jaw decides to enter a tournament and cleans house.

It happens.

[Eric Xayavong]

I thought the Jaime scene was underwhelming. It just didn't feel as convincing as Theon's scenes, which i felt were amazing. Getting knocked off the horse reminds me of experiences getting winded myself. The ear ringing is nice touch too. Great acting and directing imo. (except for jaime's scene)

[StarkDragon]

Firstly, I absolutely LOVE your userID. Douglas Adams For The Win!

Secondly, I get what you are saying, especially the archery points. But I go further.

Any time I see a bow in any Hollywood or TV production I wince... cos they are doing it wrong. That bow Meera is carrying? Yeah, throw it in the bin, its ruined. You don't leave bows - especially the Longbows and Recurve bows strung for any amount of time. Any archer who is relying on a bow for food will only string the bow immediately prior to a hunt and will destring it as soon as they have taken the kill. This preserves the string... sure, you carry spares, but leaving the bow strung causes the bow to "follow the sting". This means the wood in the bow becomes slightly bent and it never has the same power. As a guard, they will only string a bow once they are certain there is an enemy nearby. They never carry them strung 'just-in-case'.

Also, any time I see an actor holding a Longbow or Recurve drawn for any amount of time I call BS. This is extremely hard to do, and all but impossible for a child to sustain for any more than a brief moment in time. You can do it with modern compound bows, but even when you watch something like the Olympics, you see the competitors waiting in the drawn stance for the wind to die, then they 'let down' after a few seconds. The stance Bran was holding in the dream is BS (but yes, I know it was a dream and therefore doesn't matter.)

Its all about the practicalities of the production. Holding a drawn stance or lightning fast shooting of 4 arrows is all about dramatic effect. Having a guy walking around with an unstrung bow looks like he is walking around with a walking staff taller than he is. Next there is a battle and suddenly he has a bow and the audience goes "This is rubbish! Where did that bow suddenly come from?"

Similarly for Jaime's lack of reflex reactions - its all about the dramatic effect not the practicalities... I mean his heart must have stopped too because there was a distinct lack of high pressure blood.

The secret is to just take a breath and enjoy the show for what it is.... and its not a documentary.

Ooh, thanks for that post, it was highly educational.

:cheers:

[Dove]

I thought the Blackfish was way too much of a dick to Edmure. When Edmure kept missing the funeral boat in the book, wasn't Blackfish relatively okay with it, attributing it to Edmure's grief?

Haha, I figured I was the only one who felt this way! Everyone going on about how badass Blackfish was, he honestly just came across as a nagging dickhead to me.

There's still plenty of time to built him up as a cool, understanding badass, but yeah.

[StarkDragon]

Haha, I figured I was the only one who felt this way! Everyone going on about how badass Blackfish was, he honestly just came across as a nagging dickhead to me.

There's still plenty of time to built him up as a cool, understanding badass, but yeah.

No, I didn't like this change either.

Blackfish is still a badass. Just so happens to be a jackass now too.

[Mediumjon Umber]

Disagree about Jaime's reaction. Shock does that to you. I agree about the flail though. If that thing was a solid piece of metal then even a blow to the shoulder would've been enough to kill Theon, if the Bolton boy would've been able to swing the weapon while riding. Flails, morningstars and warhammers are pretty small weapons compared to swords and spears, because they have a huge mass concentrated on one end. I thought the flail that was used in the episode was freakishly big for a weapon used from a horseback. Getting hit by that in full swing while on a galloping horse would've broken all your ribs and turned the insides of your gut to mush, while Theon only got the wind punched out of him.

[DarkAndFullOfTurnips]

I boxed in my youth. I knew guys who had trained since children and were outstanding, skilled, nationally rated fighters. But a guy with natural ability and an iron jaw decides to enter a tournament and cleans house.

It happens.

The point is that Tyrion is a dwarf and is cutting down knights on horseback with no training at all.

[a free shadow]

The point is that Tyrion is a dwarf and is cutting down knights on horseback with no training at all.

There was a recent GRRM interview, where he talked how the tales of brave knights bravely slaying dozens of enemies on the battlefield were an illusion in most cases, because they were armoured, armed, on a horseback and had tangible training, while their "enemies" were often former peasants, who, if not carrying a pitchfork or something like it, were unskillled and untrained.

Blackwater was full of knights and highborns with training, but who is to say their training and skill were torougly better than Tyrion's?

[Ser Desmond Wine's Bane]

There was a recent GRRM interview, where he talked how the tales of brave knights bravely slaying dozens of enemies on the battlefield were an illusion in most cases, because they were armoured, armed, on a horseback and had tangible training, while their "enemies" were often former peasants, who, if not carrying a pitchfork or something like it, were unskillled and untrained.

Blackwater was full of knights and highborns with training, but who is to say their training and skill were torougly better than Tyrion's?

I recently read a book about the Battle of Poitiers in 1356. The cover quote says "The best battle scenes I have ever read of any author, past or present." - George R.R. Martin

In it the author was painstaking in recreating the Battle as accurately as possible. The French had dismounted and approached the English line to fight on foot. The thing seriously went on for hour after hour. Very few swords were used because both sides were fully armoured. The weapons were Warhammers, Halberds, Flails, Morning Stars etc. They just tried to bash their way through each others armour. After all those hours very few were dead, perhaps a couple of hundred on each side.

(Eventually the French made a huge tactical error, the English mounted archers swept their flank and the French King was captured. The French lines were broken and they were routed. Thousands died in the rout but very few died in the battle itself. The French were NOT battle hardened and any who were 'fighters' had only ever done so on horseback.)

So given that, I reject that anyone could seriously walk into armoured men and be a BAMF in reality.

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But ASOIAF is fiction, not a documentary.