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LordStoneheart

Ruthless Robb [Major Spoilers]

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I never particularly cared for Robb in the books either, though his death did make me quite sad. It was Cat's death that hit me the hardest, not to mention the fate of all of the neat background northern characters like Manderly's son, the Greatjon and Dacey Mormont. Their scramble to protect Robb even though they know it's all over was very powerful.

The Red Wedding isn't just a big deal for the deaths, but for the implications; what it means for Robb's cause, how their deaths will effect poor Sansa and Arya, and the huge shift of power in the Frey's and Bolton's favor while destroying their reputations beyond repair. Even if people don't particularly care for TV Robb, I think it will still be quite powerful.

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Knowing Robb is fucked for the war as a whole and expecting a massacre at a wedding after guest right are two very different things. It's a huge shock, whether you expect Robb to die soon or not. I don't think any nonreader will predict Robb's demise to be just as brutal as it is.

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The Red Wedding isn't just a big deal for the deaths, but for the implications; what it means for Robb's cause, how their deaths will effect poor Sansa and Arya, and the huge shift of power in the Frey's and Bolton's favor while destroying their reputations beyond repair. Even if people don't particularly care for TV Robb, I think it will still be quite powerful.

That's a good point. The North as we know it is fucked by the end of aSoS and being led by a sociopathic turncloak. Winterfell in ruins, the rest of the loyal north pretty much in disarray. I'm doubtful these somewhat mroe subtly facts will be as powerful in the show, but Robb will be the last Northerner the viewers know and like after the RW.

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Another very important thing to establish just how vile the Red Wedding is in my opinion, is to emphasize just how big of a taboo that violating guest right is. That it's essentially considered the worst possible crime there is. I'm not sure how they could do that now without making it incredibly obvious that something horrible will happen, though.

That's probably what makes it so powerful in the books, is that powerful feeling of forboding clashing with the uneasy certainty that surely they're safe, no-one would possibly be willing to break the guest right and harm them after they've had bread and salt... right?

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Another very important thing to establish just how vile the Red Wedding is in my opinion, is to emphasize just how big of a taboo that violating guest right is. That it's essentially considered the worst possible crime there is. I'm not sure how they could do that now without making it incredibly obvious that something horrible will happen, though.

That's probably what makes it so powerful in the books, is that powerful feeling of forboding clashing with the uneasy certainty that surely they're safe, no-one would possibly be willing to break the guest right and harm them after they've had bread and salt... right?

From Bran in CoK: They didn’t have to tell the truth, but the oaths were binding unless they said “Mayhaps,” so the trick was to say “Mayhaps” so the lord of the crossing didn’t notice. Then you could try and knock the lord into the water and you got to be lord of the crossing, but only if you’d said “Mayhaps.” Otherwise you were out of the game.

From Catelyn in SoS: “My lord!” Catelyn had almost forgotten. “Some food would be most welcome. We have ridden many leagues in the rain.” Walder Frey’s mouth moved in and out. “Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage.”

Blew my fucking mind on the re-read.

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Well violating guest right is seen as the worst of all crimes according to Old Nan's tale of the Rat Cook. But one bit of dialogue en route to the twins can sort of accomplish that.

"Robb, we must be careful and be sure to ask Lord Frey for bread and salt. Even a prickly man like Walder Frey would not dare harm us and break our guest right...There is no greater crime in the eyes of God's and men." - Catelyn.

Then when they sit down and break bread Cat can look at Robb and give a sigh of relief. THEN BAM.

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Well violating guest right is seen as the worst of all crimes according to Old Nan's tale of the Rat Cook. But one bit of dialogue en route to the twins can sort of accomplish that.

"Robb, we must be careful and be sure to ask Lord Frey for bread and salt. Even a prickly man like Walder Frey would not dare harm us and break our guest right...There is no greater crime in the eyes of God's and men." - Catelyn.

Then when they sit down and break bread Cat can look at Robb and give a sigh of relief. THEN BAM.

I think Cat saying it makes it a bit too odd. However, if Bran and Co. were to discuss the story and bring up the guest right, it might serve the show better.

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From Bran in CoK: They didn’t have to tell the truth, but the oaths were binding unless they said “Mayhaps,” so the trick was to say “Mayhaps” so the lord of the crossing didn’t notice. Then you could try and knock the lord into the water and you got to be lord of the crossing, but only if you’d said “Mayhaps.” Otherwise you were out of the game.

From Catelyn in SoS: “My lord!” Catelyn had almost forgotten. “Some food would be most welcome. We have ridden many leagues in the rain.” Walder Frey’s mouth moved in and out. “Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage.”

Blew my fucking mind on the re-read.

Mind blown.

Nice pick up!

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Glad you enjoyed it!! I thought the Hound to Arya saying "Maybe we'll make it in time for your uncle's bloody wedding" or the narration of "Grey Wind bared his teeth at the rain" was the best instance of foreshadowing, but then I saw that. GRRM you sneaky devil.

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I think Cat saying it makes it a bit too odd. However, if Bran and Co. were to discuss the story and bring up the guest right, it might serve the show better.

Why would Cat saying it be odd. I suppose she doesn't have to say there is no greater crime, but it will be more reassuring for viewers if Cat says hey we better get some food so we know we're safe, and then when they do the audience feels safer. She says as much in the books anyways, minus the Rat King stuff.

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Craster's mutiny seems a nice place to introduce the viewers to guests rights

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From Bran in CoK: They didn’t have to tell the truth, but the oaths were binding unless they said “Mayhaps,” so the trick was to say “Mayhaps” so the lord of the crossing didn’t notice. Then you could try and knock the lord into the water and you got to be lord of the crossing, but only if you’d said “Mayhaps.” Otherwise you were out of the game.

From Catelyn in SoS: “My lord!” Catelyn had almost forgotten. “Some food would be most welcome. We have ridden many leagues in the rain.” Walder Frey’s mouth moved in and out. “Food, heh. A loaf of bread, a bite of cheese, mayhaps a sausage.”

Blew my fucking mind on the re-read.

Wow, this is amazing! Walder Frey, you cheeky little monkey. I love how many subtle "background" details there are like this crammed into the books.

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Craster's mutiny seems a nice place to introduce the viewers to guests rights

Oh, that could work. Do the wildlings follow guest right? I'd imagine they could because it's more highly regarded in the North, but I can't remember an instance of them mentioning it.

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Oh, that could work. Do the wildlings follow guest right? I'd imagine they could because it's more highly regarded in the North, but I can't remember an instance of them mentioning it.

Yes. Mance tells Jon he's safe for the night since he would be protected by guest right at least until the next day.

It's also a tradition from the First Men, and it's mentioned that the Old Gods hold it sacred, so you would assume it is followed by even wildlings since they are blood of the First Men.

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Yes. Mance tells Jon he's safe for the night since he would be protected by guest right at least until the next day.

It's also a tradition from the First Men, and it's mentioned that the Old Gods hold it sacred, so you would assume it is followed by even wildlings since they are blood of the First Men.

Ah, alright. Slipped my mind. Thanks! That would work out then.

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I never particularly cared for Robb in the books either, though his death did make me quite sad. It was Cat's death that hit me the hardest, not to mention the fate of all of the neat background northern characters like Manderly's son, the Greatjon and Dacey Mormont. Their scramble to protect Robb even though they know it's all over was very powerful.

The Red Wedding isn't just a big deal for the deaths, but for the implications; what it means for Robb's cause, how their deaths will effect poor Sansa and Arya, and the huge shift of power in the Frey's and Bolton's favor while destroying their reputations beyond repair. Even if people don't particularly care for TV Robb, I think it will still be quite powerful.

:agree: This, totally agree with everything she said

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Without any bannermen prominent enough on the show (Aside from... well, Bolton and Karstark. ;)) to mow down and really make an impact on viewers, I've been wondering if the Blackfish might play that part in some way. I don't remember him doing anything especially important part afterwards, but I could be mistaken. He's a recognizable face now and his death would be quite meaningful. Book-readers would probably be out for blood, though, at a departure that big for such a fan favorite character.

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I never saw it as a blunder of him not spelling every detail out to Edmure. He said hold Riverrun and Edmure knew what he wanted, but wanted glory for himself, on TV and in the books. Clearly, Robb's snicker wasn't out of amusement but out of frustrations with Edmure. I can see him thinking that, you have the nerve to disobey my orders and go after the mountain because you want to be the Lord of Riverrun and have a song sang in your name, other than the ballad of the floppy fish, yet you cannot even shoot an arrow straight enough to light the funeral pyre.

This.

Edmure was so pathertic in that scene. I had much more pity for him in the book since I felt like he was panicking more. In the show, his body language looked like a whine of, "I hate arrows! Can someone please do this for me?"

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I never particularly cared for Robb in the books either, though his death did make me quite sad. It was Cat's death that hit me the hardest, not to mention the fate of all of the neat background northern characters like Manderly's son, the Greatjon and Dacey Mormont. Their scramble to protect Robb even though they know it's all over was very powerful.

The Red Wedding isn't just a big deal for the deaths, but for the implications; what it means for Robb's cause, how their deaths will effect poor Sansa and Arya, and the huge shift of power in the Frey's and Bolton's favor while destroying their reputations beyond repair. Even if people don't particularly care for TV Robb, I think it will still be quite powerful.

Absolutely. With Ned, at least we had Robb's cavalry charge to pin our hopes of Stark justice on. With the RW, there is no such comfort. There is that leaden feeling when you start desperately looking for ways the other Starks can turn back the tables, and failing miserably to come up with anything. It's defeat. Sudden, stunning, spectacularly final defeat. In a vile fashion. AFFC and ADWD are a melancholy daze following the RW.

It's not just losing Robb and Cat that's the issue, its the reminder that Ned wont get his justice now, and Joffrey will probably carry on grinning indefinitely. I derived no pleasure from Joffrey's demise as I was still in mourning, and the culprit was unclear. In no way did it feel like compensation.

The glorious cavalry, the heros who have come to save the day get rubbed out in the most ignominious fashion possible by without so much as getting close to Joffrey. That just doesn't happen in stories. It's the darkest thing I have ever read.

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