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Set_Gecko

[Book Spoilers] Brynden Tully and Edmure Tully should have been introduced waaaay earlier

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So we have Brutus as Edmure Tully and Ceasar as Mance Rayder...

Actor choice for Edmure is ok but i would have never gotten in my head to pick Ciaran Hinds for Mance Rayder.It just dont fit.

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But what would they have been doing in the past seasons?

If they had only put Catelyn and Jaime in Riverrun when they were supposed to there would have been plenty for him to do in Season 2.

They also couldn't say that the Blackfish was there representing the Vale as well as being Hoster's brother, because he wasn't there in Season 1.

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For my money, I LOVED the casting of Brynden "the Blackfish." He's nearly exactly as I imagined him.

So we have Brutus as Edmure Tully and Ceasar as Mance Rayder...

Actor choice for Edmure is ok but i would have never gotten in my head to pick Ciaran Hinds for Mance Rayder.It just dont fit.

Only a matter of time, I guess, before we have Brutus as....who, Ser Arys Oakheart? Oberyn Martell?

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If they had only put Catelyn and Jaime in Riverrun when they were supposed to there would have been plenty for him to do in Season 2.

They also couldn't say that the Blackfish was there representing the Vale as well as being Hoster's brother, because he wasn't there in Season 1.

right but that would have required creating another extensive set that wouldnt see much use until the next season. just one of those things that wasnt going to happen

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What I don't understand is why they made the bow scene so idiotic. The Blackfish should have gotten the Bow more soft from Edmure. Of course in the book it also shows Edmure's failure, but on the other hand it isn't easy to hit a boat on a river with an arrow, well for a skilled archer like Blackfish it may be not difficult (But not that easy, like he does it), but well it was respectless, a noble family doesn't do something like that in public.

And the normally good idea, the Blackfish correcting Edmure for saying nephew instead my King, turns with the behavior of the blackfish at the funeral in mind to be totally stupid. Edmure calls his nephew, nephew instead of King in privacy, the Blackfish had mocked his Lord in publicy...

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Areo Hotah doesn't even appear in the books at this point..

I believe it's called sarcasm... :P

I think it was a perfect introduction. Show readers had two new characters introduced, but it felt so natural that it didn't seem to bother anyone. On the contrary they really liked it from what I got. Well written, well executed. As per OP's comment on understanding Robb's strategy, that still came across in the show.

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It's got little to do with how many episodes there are, even if there were 20 episodes per season. At some point there are just too many characters for the viewers to remember - that's why they delayed introducing them.

It's also more expensive to hire two significant new cast members.

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What I don't understand is why they made the bow scene so idiotic. The Blackfish should have gotten the Bow more soft from Edmure. Of course in the book it also shows Edmure's failure, but on the other hand it isn't easy to hit a boat on a river with an arrow, well for a skilled archer like Blackfish it may be not difficult (But not that easy, like he does it), but well it was respectless, a noble family doesn't do something like that in public.

The more annoying part is how Blackfish doesn't really judge Edmure in the books for his missing, instead references how Hoster missed for their lord father also thus noting that it was likely the emotional resonance of losing a father which causes the missing.

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It was a bit off kilter to have Robb talking to Edmure like they have known each other for years when as far as we know TV wise they just met for the first time. .

Since the two characters are related, it isn't really all that much. Although every TV show that runs long enough suffers with that sort of thing eventually- introducing important characters from the past that were never mentioned on the show before. The Sopranos with Tony Blundetto in S05 is a good example.

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While I agree you can't add too many characters at once, and I like the way they added them, I think they should have just cut the part about Edmure messing up Robbs plans. Without the build up it made no sense. I watched it with my brother who didn't read the books but rarely gets confused, and he turned to me and said "what the hell are they talking about". It also made less sense for Robb to get mad, in the books Edmure disobeyed Robb's orders, here he literally could not have guessed what Robb wanted, he just did what he thought was necessary and protected an important mill on his land.

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Well, you do have to follow the dialogue closely and understand matters that have obviously gone on before off-screen. There are always certain things that are clearly implied by what is said or done. It seemed perfectly clear to me from the Riverrun scenes that in off screen actions:-

1. Robb and Catelyn had met with Edmure and Brynden at least briefly before the actual funeral - I mean, when we left them in Ep 2 they were still on their horses going to Rivverun! So you you naturally assume that they had some sort of social interaction with the Tullys when they arrived, and didn't just leap off their horses and go straight to the riverbank where the funeral pyre boat was waiting.

2. Robb had sent orders to Edmure to hold his position at Riverrun i.e. stay there. The dialogue and acting made it very clear that he and Brynden clearly didn't think Robb needed to spell it out in words of one syllable (to a man who is older than he is), that this actually meant: "Stay put - do not venture out - just stay where you are and defend against any attack." These orders had been sent some time ago, because clearly there has been a battle while Robb was on the road, and Edmure is now back at Riverrun looking forward to being praised for his 'victory' at winning 'a mill' at the cost of several hundred valuable knights.

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First and foremost, hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum.

I think that what many are forgetting as far as Edmure and Brynden are concerned, is that the show has only three-four minutes to establish their main carachter features. They had to establish the Blackfish as a strong leader who is also a caring uncle, and Edmure as an incompetent, yet honest and loyal man. How to do that?

First, fine, Edmure had to miss the first three arrow shots. And when he does, we all see that every missed shot wounds him inside a little bit more than the previous. Then, the Blackfish shoves him (and Edmure does not manage to hide his being humiliated) and takes care of the matter, thus showing his authority and ability. Yes, he didn't shove Edmure in the book, but at that point of aSoS, we all knew who they were and what they were capable of doing. In the show we don't.

Then, the second scene; at first Edmure comes out as arrogant, and Brynden, following his previous actions, shows his leadership and competence in war/political matters. Then Robb gets angry with Edmure, as the latter understands his mistakes and says maybe the most sincere "sorry" on the show (and we don't see many people apologizing, in GoT). Therefore yes, he may be arrogant and incompetent sometimes, but he is basically naive, and most importantly, loyal.

And last, the scene with Cat manages to show how caring, comforting yet strong the Blackfish is.

So, the two have been pefectly portrayed, their most important and complex features clearly defined in JUST THREE MINUTES. If this is not outstanding character development, then I don't know what is.

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Have you noticed that nobody in the episode pronounced the name "Edmure"? and that the Blackfish was properly introduced during his dialogue with Cat, while Edmure never really was... I think many non-readers (aka "the unsullied" :D ) are still wondering who the hell is that very lame archer who calls the king in the north nephew...

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The more annoying part is how Blackfish doesn't really judge Edmure in the books for his missing, instead references how Hoster missed for their lord father also thus noting that it was likely the emotional resonance of losing a father which causes the missing.

Hoster only missed the first arrow though, he hit with the second one. It was Edmure's drinking the day before that made him miss. At least that is how Cat sees it.

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Brynden seems like a dickhead. Edmures dad just died and he treated him so poorly for missing that shot.

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With good reason, it seems the writers have avoided introducing new characters before they have anything major to do (with some exceptions).

The other thing about having so many characters, and so little screen time for each, is that you have to make them memorable. Blackfish's treatment of Edmure at the funeral wasn't exactly true to the book character, but it was more memorable, so I think it works a lot better in the tv show.

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First and foremost, hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum.

I think that what many are forgetting as far as Edmure and Brynden are concerned, is that the show has only three-four minutes to establish their main carachter features. They had to establish the Blackfish as a strong leader who is also a caring uncle, and Edmure as an incompetent, yet honest and loyal man. How to do that?

First, fine, Edmure had to miss the first three arrow shots. And when he does, we all see that every missed shot wounds him inside a little bit more than the previous. Then, the Blackfish shoves him (and Edmure does not manage to hide his being humiliated) and takes care of the matter, thus showing his authority and ability. Yes, he didn't shove Edmure in the book, but at that point of aSoS, we all knew who they were and what they were capable of doing. In the show we don't.

Then, the second scene; at first Edmure comes out as arrogant, and Brynden, following his previous actions, shows his leadership and competence in war/political matters. Then Robb gets angry with Edmure, as the latter understands his mistakes and says maybe the most sincere "sorry" on the show (and we don't see many people apologizing, in GoT). Therefore yes, he may be arrogant and incompetent sometimes, but he is basically naive, and most importantly, loyal.

And last, the scene with Cat manages to show how caring, comforting yet strong the Blackfish is.

So, the two have been pefectly portrayed, their most important and complex features clearly defined in JUST THREE MINUTES. If this is not outstanding character development, then I don't know what is.

A brilliant first post, absolutely right. This is an example of excellent screen writing and adaptation skills.

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First and foremost, hello everyone, this is my first post on this forum.

I think that what many are forgetting as far as Edmure and Brynden are concerned, is that the show has only three-four minutes to establish their main carachter features. They had to establish the Blackfish as a strong leader who is also a caring uncle, and Edmure as an incompetent, yet honest and loyal man. How to do that?

First, fine, Edmure had to miss the first three arrow shots. And when he does, we all see that every missed shot wounds him inside a little bit more than the previous. Then, the Blackfish shoves him (and Edmure does not manage to hide his being humiliated) and takes care of the matter, thus showing his authority and ability. Yes, he didn't shove Edmure in the book, but at that point of aSoS, we all knew who they were and what they were capable of doing. In the show we don't.

Then, the second scene; at first Edmure comes out as arrogant, and Brynden, following his previous actions, shows his leadership and competence in war/political matters. Then Robb gets angry with Edmure, as the latter understands his mistakes and says maybe the most sincere "sorry" on the show (and we don't see many people apologizing, in GoT). Therefore yes, he may be arrogant and incompetent sometimes, but he is basically naive, and most importantly, loyal.

And last, the scene with Cat manages to show how caring, comforting yet strong the Blackfish is.

So, the two have been pefectly portrayed, their most important and complex features clearly defined in JUST THREE MINUTES. If this is not outstanding character development, then I don't know what is.

This is basically what I wanted to say. Also technically everything we read in the books is from the point of view of one character who will inevitably inflect every situation with their predispositions which gives D&D a lot of room for manoeuvere without having to truly deviate from the source material. Of course sometimes they do deviate from the source material but in scenes like this no one can say that they have, because Cat may not have seen Rob smirking and may not have been particularly conscious of how Edmure's masculinity was being called into question by the other men at the funeral. So many times I have seen people complaining about the characterization of certain relationships, even though in the books we only get one perspective of those relationships. This is sort of to do with 'unreliable narrators' but a little bit more subtle in that its not about the narrators lying or making something up that we know didn't happen, but simply about the fact that we all perceive almost every facet of our life differently to other people.

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I believe it's called sarcasm... :P

You'll have to excuse me for not sensing the sarcasm in a phrase such as "It peeves me off that Areo Hotah hasn't been introduced yet" which is clearly dripping with it. :dunno:

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