R+L=J v.47

[Angalin]

Well somebody had to...

Just to recap a little from the end of the last one. A Song of Ice and Fire was originally conceived and mapped out as a trilogy. It hasn't worked out that way of course but that early optimism saw the necessary clues as to Jon Snow's parentage planted in the first volume; A Game of Thrones.

The requirement for consistency means that subsequent volumes will contain supporting evidence and no doubt a few red herrings to throw readers off, but its what's in AGoT that's important.

On the basis of that evidence, picked over so often as to not require rehearsing again in this post, there seems little doubt that Jon is the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, first because the clues point to that fact and secondly because an alternative explanation makes the "mystery" pointless.

The real question therefore, and the answer to those who object that R+L=J is too obvious (but perhaps only in retrospect after nearly 20 years of arguing over it) is not whether Jon is indeed the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna, but what that is actually going to mean in terms of taking the plot forward.

As such he is the rightful heir to the Targaryen throne, but what is the real significance of his being a son of Winterfell. Which is going to be more important in the end. And to those who suggest that as a Targaryen and a Stark he is the union of Ice and Fire, well yes indeed, but what will that actually mean?

[lots of links to previous threads and reference points]

[Alia of the knife]

"Hahaha great minds think alike I was watching Defiance too and thinking the same thing to myself! " - Jon Icefyre

Yes, and it looks like her father is a "high lord" too. :D

Edit: DOH! A secret wedding under the trees.

[Lady Gwynhyfvar]

Finally in from long train ride & want to say thanks to everyone (you know who you are :)) for the well wishes. I was personally never in immediate danger, but in an evolving situation like today it's hard to know what is safe and what isn't. Puts everything in perspective a bit, you know?

Night folks!

[UVA]

UVA:Nirolo -- Rhaegar dying saying Lyanna's name is confirmed in the GRRM-sanctioned/vetted ASOIF app.

Which may merely mean that that is what very smart fans think, and its not a massively important detail that GRRM would have caught if wrong.

I happen to think its true, but the app alone is not a reliably canon resource. Yes, GRRM 'vetted' it. But that doesn't mean he double checked every single entry and every detail within every entry. Its been wrong before, apparently.

Corbon:

Which may merely mean that that is what very smart fans think, and its not a massively important detail that GRRM would have caught if wrong.I happen to think its true, but the app alone is not a reliably canon resource. Yes, GRRM 'vetted' it. But that doesn't mean he double checked every single entry and every detail within every entry. Its been wrong before, apparently.

What? I never claimed was cannon, in fact I thought I was very careful about qualifying the app's status. But how are we, pray tell, to use the app if these all important new reveals (for example, Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar during Lyanna's abduction) if not to further flesh out and inform our interpretation?

Ultimately, why include significant reveals like this if we are only to take then with a grain of salt? It makes little sense that Martin would not greenlight these essential facts that are so crucial to one of the story's greatest mysteries, no?

The funny thing is, I rarely appeal to the app.

[J. Stargaryen]

Corbon:

What? I never claimed was cannon, in fact I thought I was very careful about qualifying the app's status. But how are we, pray tell, to use the app if these all important new reveals (for example, Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar during Lyanna's abduction) if not to further flesh out and inform our interpretation?

Ultimately, why include significant reveals like this if we are only to take then with a grain of salt? It makes little sense that Martin would not greenlight these essential facts that are so crucial to one of the story's greatest mysteries, no?

The funny thing is, I rarely appeal to the app.

Woe to the person who references the app, for the Corbon will hunt you down, and let you know that you've done a bad bad thing.

[UVA]

Woe to the person who references the app, for the Corbon will hunt you down, and let you know that you've done a bad bad thing.

Yea, sure, whatever. Today (of all days) I will not have this shit.

[Ser Creighton]

Woe to the person who references the app, for the Corbon will hunt you down, and let you know that you've done a bad bad thing.

The app, what is the app, like for an Ipad?

[Ser Creighton]

Oh and what the heck happened to 46? I was on a roll damn it, well maybe more of a scone, but still scones are good to. All that work and now it's locked away forever taken from the world, like a morning mist chased away by the sun, the light I gave to the world stolen and locked away forever. It's like drinking Starbucks for years and then having to switch to Sanka. 46 was like a Venti white mocha extra whip, or Americana on a cool fall day, but 47, 47 is a pale shadow, lacks the flavor of 46, the kick and yes the joy. Yes it's like old Sanka on a hot humid summer day in a dirty cup. Not the same, not the same at all. It's ruined, it's all ruined.

[Alia of the knife]

Oh and what the heck happened to 46? I was on a roll damn it, well maybe more of a scone, but still scones are good to. All that work and now it's locked away forever taken from the world, like a morning mist chased away by the sun, the light I gave to the world stolen and locked away forever. It's like drinking Starbucks for years and then having to switch to Sanka. 46 was like a Venti white mocha extra whip, or Americana on a cool fall day, but 47, 47 is a pale shadow, lacks the flavor of 46, the kick and yes the joy. Yes it's like old Sanka on a hot humid summer day in a dirty cup. Not the same, not the same at all. It's ruined, it's all ruined.

Sanka is never good on any day. :stillsick:

Yes, it was the App. that came out little while back that confirms some theories, while it debunks others. I would have to see the evidence that it's not reliable before I condemn it, because what is the point of putting it out to start with? :dunno:

At some point Martin is going to give us the answers, and he's not going to be able to please everyone.

The curse of the internet with years between books for fan theory to become "truth," I'm afraid.

For a long time, I speculated Darkstar was B+A=D, but then his age was confirmed, and I was wrong.

You know what happened?

Nuthin.'

I suspect I'll be wrong again. :dunce:

[Ser Creighton]

Sanka is never good on any day. :stillsick:

Yes, it was the App. that came out little while back that confirms some theories, while it debunks others. I would have to see the evidence that it's not reliable before I condemn it, because what is the point of putting it out to start with? :dunno:

At some point Martin is going to give us the answers, and he's not going to be able to please everyone.

The curse of the internet with years between books for fan theory to become "truth," I'm afraid.

For a long time, I speculated Darkstar was B+A=D, but then his age was confirmed, and I was wrong.

You know what happened?

Nuthin.'

I suspect I'll be wrong again. :dunce:

Okay, I do all this on my Ipad but don't have the app, that's why I was wondering. Maybe i'll consider it.

Yah the lots of theories somehow become fact without being confirmed but you know what. The internet is a good thing when it comes to these books. This is like a book club for me, I don't know anyone who reads these books, most of my friends barely read anything but the sport page. Giving them a book is like throwing a cross at a vampire. Normally this time of year I am covering the NFL Draft. Literally got burnt out on it, got tired of it. Read these books and thought they were great but had nobody to talk to about them. You know what it's like asking Jay Cutler about A song of Ice and Fire, it's not good, it's not good at all. Then I found this place and I was like a kid in a candy store. Love it, it's like a little happy place for someting I like. Sure you get crackpot theories, might even come up with some of your own just for kicks, but at least you can talk to people about something you have a similar intrest in.

Like I said love this place, site, whatever, can't say the Mods love me but someone has to keep them on their toes, don't want them getting soft.

[corbon]

Corbon:

What? I never claimed was cannon, in fact I thought I was very careful about qualifying the app's status.

Nirolo asked where did GRRM confirm this 'fact'. Two people replied he confirmed it in the app. In both cases the inference is that the App is a canon resource, and that everything in it is stated by GRRM.

In fact, the app is put together by fans, not GRRM. He vetted it but its highly unlkely that he checked every single little detail. Anything 'new' in that app is written by not-GRRM and may or may not have been noticed by him.

But how are we, pray tell, to use the app if these all important new reveals (for example, Dayne and Whent were with Rhaegar during Lyanna's abduction) if not to further flesh out and inform our interpretation?

Ultimately, why include significant reveals like this if we are only to take then with a grain of salt? It makes little sense that Martin would not greenlight these essential facts that are so crucial to one of the story's greatest mysteries, no?

The funny thing is, I rarely appeal to the app.

Sorry, I wasn't picking on you, just providing context for Nirolo.

Use the App for adding to or fleshing out theories, fine, but using it as a primary resource when people question where 'facts' come from isn't right, IMO. And I felt Nirolo had the right to know that. GRRM didn't provide/create that fact (unless it came from somewhere else first, like a SSM), he gave a broad vet to a huge resource which has that fact buried deep in its midst. Its not an essential fact. Its a tiny, almost insignificant fact deeply buried in a bit of background story. It only appears 'essential' when nitpicking down tiny details in a broad and clear overall narrative, and only came up becuase a poster with limited grasp of the essentials is trying to argue a dubious alternate theory.

I believe all "significant reveals" in the app should be taken with a grain of salt.

Its purpose is not to "reveal new stuff", it is to enable fans (users) to access the general information, solidly researched theories and general data easily and quickly without needing the books.

It was put together by some of the smartest and well researched people, and even the "new stuff" I'd probably agree ith nearly all of. But its not from GRRM.

Woe to the person who references the app, for the Corbon will hunt you down, and let you know that you've done a bad bad thing.

Nah, only if you use it, unsupported, as a primary resource, which is what happened, even if unintended. :P

[Alia of the knife]

Okay, I do all this on my Ipad but don't have the app, that's why I was wondering. Maybe i'll consider it.

Yah the lots of theories somehow become fact without being confirmed but you know what. The internet is a good thing when it comes to these books. This is like a book club for me, I don't know anyone who reads these books, most of my friends barely read anything but the sport page. Giving them a book is like throwing a cross at a vampire. Normally this time of year I am covering the NFL Draft. Literally got burnt out on it, got tired of it. Read these books and thought they were great but had nobody to talk to about them. You know what it's like asking Jay Cutler about A song of Ice and Fire, it's not good, it's not good at all. Then I found this place and I was like a kid in a candy store. Love it, it's like a little happy place for someting I like. Sure you get crackpot theories, might even come up with some of your own just for kicks, but at least you can talk to people about something you have a similar intrest in.

Like I said love this place, site, whatever, can't say the Mods love me but someone has to keep them on their toes, don't want them getting soft.

For me, it's like a virtual book club, or else I'd never have the time to have conversations like this, so it's a good thing.

And you have to find your peace of mind some place, and a good book and a good disussion is not a bad place to be, because you could be doing a lot worse things to take your mind off the challenges life brings us sometimes.

I suspect the Mods just want everyone to respect one another, keep on topic, and keep it great place to gather.

[Stann]

Not to rail us back on topic or anything, but there's a big part about all of this that I find troubling. The question keeps being raised about how the facts of Jon's birth parents and his legitimacy or lack thereof will be brought to the attention of both Jon himself and the realm as a whole. When this question is raised, it usually leads to one of two answers:

It doesn't matter as he'll need to win the Throne with fire and blood (and dragons wouldn't hurt), or

The Throne is about to become a complete non-issue with the coming of the Others.

So then why the great mystery? It's not like GRRM was all coy about it or anything. It's an obvious mystery that's meant to be a big reveal later in the books. They even foreshadowed it on the TV show. But all the theories bouncing around back and forth seem to indicate that, while it would be a neat fact and a lovely confirmation to all this theorycrafting and nickpicking, the fact itself really wouldn't count for much in the grand scheme of things.

Please understand, I'm not talking about him being Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised or even the ultimate personification of Ice and Fire. I'm merely talking about the happenstance of his birth. Why tease it so badly if, in the end, it's likely going to end up irrelevant?

I guess my real question is, how does GRRM go about MAKING Jon's birth and his mystery parents actually relevant to the story...

[J. Stargaryen]

Yea, sure, whatever. Today (of all days) I will not have this shit.

We all feel bad about what happened today, but I don't think that gives any of us the right to use it as an excuse to cop an attitude with each other. I could say a lot of other things as well, but instead I'll just say that I don't appreciate you throwing today's tragedy in my face because you didn't enjoy my humor. Not cool.

[Eurybia]

Not to rail us back on topic or anything, but there's a big part about all of this that I find troubling. The question keeps being raised about how the facts of Jon's birth parents and his legitimacy or lack thereof will be brought to the attention of both Jon himself and the realm as a whole. When this question is raised, it usually leads to one of two answers:

It doesn't matter as he'll need to win the Throne with fire and blood (and dragons wouldn't hurt), or

The Throne is about to become a complete non-issue with the coming of the Others.

So then why the great mystery? It's not like GRRM was all coy about it or anything. It's an obvious mystery that's meant to be a big reveal later in the books. They even foreshadowed it on the TV show. But all the theories bouncing around back and forth seem to indicate that, while it would be a neat fact and a lovely confirmation to all this theorycrafting and nickpicking, the fact itself really wouldn't count for much in the grand scheme of things.

Please understand, I'm not talking about him being Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised or even the ultimate personification of Ice and Fire. I'm merely talking about the happenstance of his birth. Why tease it so badly if, in the end, it's likely going to end up irrelevant?

I guess my real question is, how does GRRM go about MAKING Jon's birth and his mystery parents actually relevant to the story...

Assuming he is the PTWP, that in and of itself would be some relevance, at least. We know that the prince will come from Aerys and Rhaella's line and if Jon is secretly of that line, then the discovery of his parents could be part of a build to whatever the PTWP is promised to do (either a build or an explanation post reveal of his status as the Prince. Idk.)

I wonder too how he'll make the reveal matter... beyond the knowledge of it for Jon himself and any part it might play in his role in this upcoming battle, I have no idea.

Also, I can't even really imagine how a reveal would happen. Howland Reed, the crypts under Winterfell, or Bran on the weirnet... How will that coalesce into an event?

Glad you're okay, Lady G!

[UVA]

We all feel bad about what happened today, but I don't think that gives any of us the right to use it as an excuse to cop an attitude with each other. I could say a lot of other things as well, but instead I'll just say that I don't appreciate you throwing today's tragedy in my face because you didn't enjoy my humor. Not cool.

Are you kidding me? I am so done.

This wasn't about your response (sorry if you took it that way) but rather my aggravation with Corbon's pouncing on me.

[Winds of Winter blow cold]

Quote

Reference guide.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:

Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:

Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:

Jon Snow Theories

Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if he has a burned hand?

Targaryens are not immune to fire. Aerion Brightflame died drinking wildfire. Aegon V and his son Duncan are thought to have died in a fire-related event at Summerhall. Rhaenyra was eaten by Aegon II's dragon, presumably roasted by fire before the dragon took a bite. Viserys died when he was crowned with molten gold. Dany suffered burns from the fire pit incident at the end of A Dance with Dragons. Finally, the author has stated outright that Targaryens are not immune to fire. Jon's burned hand does not mean he is ineligible to be part Targaryen. For more information about the myth of Targ fire immunity, see this thread.

How can Jon be a Targ if he doesn't have silver hair and purple eyes?

Not all Targaryens had the typical Valyrian look. Alysanne had blue eyes. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) had the Dornish look. Some of the Great Bastards did not have typical Valyrian features. Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had her mother's Dornish look.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?

Much is made over the fact that Arya looks like Lyanna, and Jon looks like Arya. Ned and Lyanna shared similar looks.

How can Jon be half-Targ if he has a direwolf?

Ned's trueborn children are half Stark and half Tully. Being half Tully didn't prevent them from having a direwolf so there is no reason to think being half Targaryen would prevent Jon from having a direwolf. If Lyanna is his mother, then he's still half Stark. Furthermore, there is already a character who is half Targaryen and half blood of the First Men and was a skinchanger: Bloodraven.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?

The evidence that Jon is probably the legitimate is that Targaryens have a history of polygamous marriages which makes it a possibility that Rhaegar had two wives. Three Kingsguards were present at the Tower of Joy when Ned arrived. Even after Ned said that Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon were dead and Viserys had fled to Dragonstone, the KG opted to stay at the TOJ stating they were obeying their Kingsguard vow. The heart of a KG vow is to protect the king. With Aerys, Rhaegar and Aegon dead, the new king would have been Viserys, unless Lyanna's child was legitimate making him the new king of the Targaryen dynasty. For a comprehensive analysis of Jon's legitimacy, see the detailed explanations in the two linked articles.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?

The theory is not obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on first read, most will not. Keep in mind that readers who go to online fan forums, such as this one, represent a very small minority of the ASOIAF readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 15 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?

Ned doesn't think about anyone being his mother. He says the name 'Wylla' to Robert, but does not actively think that Wylla is the mother. He also doesn't think of Jon as his son. There are numerous mysteries in the series, and Jon's parentage is one of those. If Ned thought about Jon being Lyanna's son, it would not be a mystery.

Why should we care who Jon's parents are? Will Jon care? Who cares if he's legitimate?

Once one accepts that the evidence is conclusive and that Jon's parents are Rhaegar and Lyanna and that he is most probably legitimate, these become the important questions.

Quote

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread one)

“Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread” (thread two)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III)” (thread three)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV)” (thread four)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V)” (thread five)

“The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI)” (thread six)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII” (thread seven)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII” (thread eight)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX” (thread nine)

“The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X”(thread ten)

“The R+L=J thread, part XI” (thread eleven)

“The R+L=J thread, part XII” (thread twelve)

“R+L=J Part XXIII” (thread thirteen)

“R+L=J Part XXIV” (thread fourteen)

“R+L=J XXV” (thread fifteen)

“R+L=J v.16” (thread sixteen)

“R+L=J v.17” (thread seventeen)

“R+L=J v.18” (thread eighteen)

“R+L=J v.19” (thread nineteen)

“R+L=J v.20” (thread twenty)

“R+L=J v.21” (thread twenty-one)

“R+L=J v.22” (thread twenty-two)

“R+L=J v.22a” (thread 22a)

“R+L=J v.23” (thread twenty-three)

“R+L=J v.24” (thread twenty-four)

“R+L=J v.25” (thread twenty-five)

“R+L=J v.26” (thread twenty-six)

“R+L=J v.27” (thread twenty-seven)

“R+L=J v.28” (thread twenty-eight)

“R+L=J v.29” (thread twenty-nine)

“R+L=J v.30” (thread thirty)

“R+L=J v.31” (thread thirty-one)

“R+L=J v.32” (thread thirty-two)

“R+L=J #33” (thread thirty-three)

“R+L=J v.34” (thread thirty-four)

“R+L=J v.35” (thread thirty-five)

“R+L=J v.36” (thread thirty-six)

“R+L=J v.37” (thread thirty-seven)

“R+L=J v.38” (thread thirty-eight)

“R+L=J v.39” (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

R+L=J v. 41 (thread forty-one)

R+L=J v.42 (thread forty-two)

R+L=J v. 43 (thread forty-three)

R+L=J v.44 (thread forty-four)

R+L=J v.45 (thread forty-five)

R+L=J v.46 (thread forty-six)

[J. Stargaryen]

Are you kidding me? I am so done.

This wasn't about your response (sorry if you took it that way) but rather my aggravation with Corbon's pouncing on me.

I really thought your comments were directed at me. Sorry. :crawls into hole:

[UVA]

Nirolo asked where did GRRM confirm this 'fact'. Two people replied he confirmed it in the app. In both cases the inference is that the App is a canon resource, and that everything in it is stated by GRRM.

In fact, the app is put together by fans, not GRRM. He vetted it but its highly unlkely that he checked every single little detail. Anything 'new' in that app is written by not-GRRM and may or may not have been noticed by him.

I get the sense that you have historically dug your heels in about The App for whatever reason, but let me reiterate where I disagree and try to provide some additional context for Nirolo, then I will drop it.

Again, never said it was cannon, found in the text nor stated in any outlet by GRRM. Nirolo specifically asked the source of the statement that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips. Strictly speaking, the source is the GRRM-vetted/sanctioned (he advertised it on his blog) aSoIaF app entry for 'Rhaegar Targaryen'. Whatever 'vetted', 'approved', pushed on GRRM's blog may mean, the app's accuracy and veracity seem to be above the aSoIaF Wiki and fanfic. Otherwise, why charge $$ for it?

But my primary problem, and I admit I'm a little taken back that this is coming from you Corbon -- someone whose ideas I've always found to be most articulated and well-reasoned on the subject of RLJ, is that the reveals re. Rhaegar and Lyanna in the app are not significantly informative to the the whole concept of RLJ, namely that:

• Dayne and Whent were present/participated in Rhaegar's 'abduction' of Lyanna;
  
• Rhaegar whispered 'Lyanna' with his last breath.
  

Its a tiny, almost insignificant fact deeply buried in a bit of background story. It only appears 'essential' when nitpicking down tiny details in a broad and clear overall narrative, and only came up becuase a poster with limited grasp of the essentials is trying to argue a dubious alternate theory.

These points are 'tiny'? This information is not in the text but to say that the 'facts' revealed in the app are not essential and their presence in the app is because they are overlooked by GRRM is to ignore fundamental components of his well-wrought RLJ presentation.

Try to unpack it and one finds more details about highly contested points re. the KG's involvement and Rhaegar's attitude about Lyanna. The not-quite-cannon-App now links two KG (Dayne and Whent) to the mysterious circumstances surrounding Lyanna's disappearance and the same two KG who end up defending Lyanna and Jon. This detail indicates there may be something more to Dayne's and Whent's particular relationship to Rhaegar and their involvement in his endgame with Lyanna. We're not contesting how a particular banner is described, right? This has got to be better than ass-pull speculation, even if GRRM only obliquely knew/approved the content of the app, right?

Add to this the statement that Rhaegar's final moments were spent whispering Lyanna's name, which further fleshes Dany's HotUD visions. We can, at the very least, extrapolate that Rhaegar had concern for the fate, nay perhaps, love for the Wolf Girl?

Use the App for adding to or fleshing out theories, fine, but using it as a primary resource when people question where 'facts' come from isn't right, IMO. And I felt Nirolo had the right to know that. GRRM didn't provide/create that fact (unless it came from somewhere else first, like a SSM), he gave a broad vet to a huge resource which has that fact buried deep in its midst. Its not an essential fact.

Nirolo asked where the Last Words of Rhaegar factoid came from and the source was qualified correctly and provided. I think the implications of these points are too thematically telling and important to be mere oversights despite the fact that they are as of yet not in novel text or in a SSM.

Perhaps there is some source that can tell us exactly to what extent the information in the app has some authority or not. Otherwise, I'm done discussing the application of it.

[UVA]

I really thought your comments were directed at me. Sorry. :crawls into hole:

Please, no worries friend. :grouphug: